Branford Marsalis' take on students today

[onlyclave]

Honestly, I think this is all a bunch of BS. The older generations always think that the younger generations have it easy, are lazy, etc. etc. etc..

None of you had to grow up in a world where a college degree is damn near required to progress in life.

Long gone are the days of getting a job with one company that you could work up through and be set for life.

The unemployment rate for young workers is at a fifty-year high, due to the chaotic job market and the requirement for a college degree to get almost anything that will pay you enough to be above the poverty level.

The minimum wage is at one of it's lowest points in the last fifty years when adjusted for inflation.

College is ungodly expensive compared to before, and as I said, closer to required than ever before, by a longshot.

The Age Discrimination Act only applies to workers over 40.

Older workers are often grandfathered into professions that now required SIGNIFICANTLY more work to even get your foot into the door for. Sure, my mother may not have a college degree and she runs the kitchen at a large juvenile correctional facility, but the people who work *under* her now have to have a college degree. She was there before this requirement.

More students are working their way through college than ever before, and even with that they need student loans just to attend state universities and they enter the job market tens of thousands of dollars in debt.

When you all were growing up, even the entry level jobs at most decent companies provided affordable, good healthcare. Those days are GONE.

A lot of older workers have had their pension funds raided, or they simply don't have the money to retire for other reasons. The result? Older people aren't retiring, opening up less room for the young to take their places in the job market.

And on and on and on and on...

It's not that all of you didn't have your own set of challenges; It's that you want to pretend that we don't have them, when in reality right now is one the harshest climates for young people in history.

Your generations drove the country, and damn near the world, into the ground and now you want to cry that the mess you left us with is BETTER than what you had? Give me a break.

"Sunny days, sweepin' the clouds away..."

 

[jnuts1]

Nine, i really think older generation had it harder than you could ever imagine. ever heard of the great depression?

 

[itswac]

oh snap!

 

[efenaye]

Whenever i see my 2yr old nephew use an iPhone or navigate youtube by himself i realise how different his generation is going to be to mine.
Its all part of growing with the times....and the times change

 

[Captain_Arrrg]

Whenever i see my 2yr old nephew use an iPhone or navigate youtube by himself i realise how different his generation is going to be to mine.
Its all part of growing with the times....and the times change

Funny thing is this whole "the younger generation is lazy/degenerate/crazy/ect" has been going on for ages.

The more things change the more they stay the same. I mean think about the medium that is being utilized for this iteration of this argument. Do you think that the children of the depression thought that the argument that they had with their lazy dope-head baby-boomers face to face would be levied by those same boomers against their lazy dope-head gen X/Y/Z kids over a global computer network?

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Without in any way disagreeing with Branford, I do have to ask, where is he teaching? And how much time does he devote to it? I mean, isn't he out on the road a LOT?

 

[JAUQO III-X]

There was a definitive target. I was quoting YOUR post.

I was implying that the post I quoted of yours exuded arrogance, yet did not have any indication that you had a real clue on the subject.

Your post was a reply to the dude who is a high school teacher. Whatever, it's fine that you disagree with him, but realistically, if he sees kids every day for 10 months out of the year, he's gonna have some insight that perhaps you (and I) wouldn't. You teach, fine, but I doubt (and correct me if I am wrong here) that you get to spend anywhere near the amount of time near kids that he does.

Not to mention the fact that you keep making these blanket statements. "Kids today...". That may be based on your experience, but that is only a sample. Painting an entire generation based on the few you've had the displeasure of dealing with is a crappy way to look at things.

I volunteer at a food bank, and it just so happens that there are a number of homeless black men that frequent it. Based on this, and using your flawless system of logic, I can deduce that since these men are poor, unemployed, and uneducated, all black people are poor, unemployed, and uneducated. Oh, and you people also enjoy chili. Go figure?

Feel free to yell "discrimination" when you get the chance.

Obviously you have issues with me. Pretty much the majority of the people that have posted on this subject are saying the same thing but in their own way. Most students are lazy.You cant have an adult conversation on a forum with out your weak A attempt to insult. I never said all students are in the same boat as far as not wanting to work hard at obtaining what they claim they want but I will say that many are.

Ones experience is not every ones.

And as far as yelling discrimination why would I?

If you're in the mood for a fight,why don't you go play a video game.

This is what I said.

For the most part kids have indeed changed. I like to refer to them as being part of the microwave generation.

Most make no serious effort or the time to work towards a goal and earn what they think they want. They want it right at the moment of asking for it.

And why don't you PM me how you really feel about me.

 

[baalroo]

For the most part kids have indeed changed. I like to refer to them as being part of the microwave generation.

Most make no serious effort or the time to work towards a goal and earn what they think they want. They want it right at the moment of asking for it.

Can I ask how long you've been teaching?

Marsalis himself even seems a bit young (at 50) to be commenting on generational shifts based off of personal experience, he was still in college in the early 80s so certainly couldn't have been able to view any students from a mature viewpoint until well into the mid to late 80s, right? So that gives him what, about 20 years of teaching to make a statement from? That's A LOT of time to gain experience in regards to TEACHING, but certainly not enough time to really talk about entire generational shifts. Heck, that's not really even long enough to see much more than a single generation of students, so how exactly is he coming to these conclusions? Is he basing it off of what he IMAGINES students from before his time were like? I mean isn't he FROM the generation before the one he's spent the majority of his time teaching?

I think THAT is why people are saying these statements are arrogant. It's one thing to say that students are lazy, coddled, etc, etc... it's another to say that students TODAY are more lazy, coddled, etc,than they have been in the past without the direct experience or data in which to actually show that is the case. It just comes off as arrogant and ignorant of the "good ol' days" syndrome that we tend to fall victim to as we grow older.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Can I ask how long you've been teaching?

Marsalis himself even seems a bit young (at 50) to be commenting on generational shifts based off of personal experience, he was still in college in the early 80s so certainly couldn't have been able to view any students from a mature viewpoint until well into the mid to late 80s, right? So that gives him what, about 20 years of teaching to make a statement from? That's A LOT of time to gain experience in regards to TEACHING, but certainly not enough time to really talk about entire generational shifts. Heck, that's not really even long enough to see much more than a single generation of students, so how exactly is he coming to these conclusions? Is he basing it off of what he IMAGINES students from before his time were like? I mean isn't he FROM the generation before the one he's spent the majority of his time teaching?

I think THAT is why people are saying these statements are arrogant.

I've been teaching on and off for close to 20 years.


If I say that a lot of students just want it all in a moment with out working for it that's not being arrogant. I have my first hand experience to back up my statement.


Don't get it confused with what I have said and I stand by with what Branford has said. For the most part I agree with him.

I cant fault his statement nor would I. If that's how he feels that based off of something from him through him.


Again most of those who have posted in this thread that happens to teach have similar experiences with students all across the teaching board.

 

[baalroo]

I've been teaching on and off for close to 20 years.


If I say that a lot of students just want it all in a moment with out working for it that's not being arrogant. I have my first hand experience to back up my statement.


Don't get it confused with what I have said and I stand by with what Branford has said. For the most part I agree with him.

I cant fault his statement nor would I. If that's how he feels that based off of something from him through him.


Again most of those who have posted in this thread that happens to teach have similar experiences with students all across the teaching board.

With all due respect, I don't think you are quite grasping the point that many of the people that are challenging your statements are making. The perceived arrogance isn't in the statements about your students, it's in the assumption that these problems are a NEW phenomenon. I have no doubt that you speak the truth in regards to your student's work ethic, but I DO doubt your ability to properly compare the work ethic of the generation that you have taught to those who have come before you in generations past. I'll say it again: You seem to be falling victim to the "good ol' days" syndrome.

 

[Deluge Of Sound]

Nine, i really think older generation had it harder than you could ever imagine. ever heard of the great depression?

Ever heard of a history book?
Those who grew during in the great depression are all dead or on the way out (the youngest of them would be at least seventy, and they wouldn't remember the depression), and do not represent the generations who are middle aged or younger today.

By your logic, you could cite the Black Plague as an example.

Can I ask how long you've been teaching?

Marsalis himself even seems a bit young (at 50) to be commenting on generational shifts based off of personal experience, he was still in college in the early 80s so certainly couldn't have been able to view any students from a mature viewpoint until well into the mid to late 80s, right? So that gives him what, about 20 years of teaching to make a statement from? That's A LOT of time to gain experience in regards to TEACHING, but certainly not enough time to really talk about entire generational shifts. Heck, that's not really even long enough to see much more than a single generation of students, so how exactly is he coming to these conclusions? Is he basing it off of what he IMAGINES students from before his time were like? I mean isn't he FROM the generation before the one he's spent the majority of his time teaching?

I think THAT is why people are saying these statements are arrogant. It's one thing to say that students are lazy, coddled, etc, etc... it's another to say that students TODAY are more lazy, coddled, etc,than they have been in the past without the direct experience or data in which to actually show that is the case. It just comes off as arrogant and ignorant of the "good ol' days" syndrome that we tend to fall victim to as we grow older.

A very good point.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

With all due respect, I don't think you are quite grasping the point that many of the people that are challenging your statements are making. The perceived arrogance isn't in the statements about your students, it's in the assumption that these problems are a NEW phenomenon. I have no doubt that you speak the truth in regards to your student's work ethic, but I DO doubt your ability to properly compare the work ethic of the generation that you have taught to those who have come before you in generations past. You seem to be falling victim to the "good ol' days" syndrome.

No for the record I am only speaking from my experiences with students today as I deal with them. I never said that students are worse today that years past.



I'm not at all caught up in the good ol days syndrome, mainly because I was not there but I am here and that is what I'm basing my comments on.

 

[Gard]

I'm not at all caught up in the good ol days syndrome, mainly because I was not there but I am here and that is what I'm basing my comments on.

This.

 

[jnuts1]

"when in reality right now is one the harshest climates for young people in history."

"Ever heard of a history book?
Those who grew during in the great depression are all dead or on the way out (the youngest of them would be at least seventy, and they wouldn't remember the depression), and do not represent the generations who are middle aged or younger today.

By your logic, you could cite the Black Plague as an example."

i thought we were talking about older generations, i didn't know they had to be alive. & i do not see how the black plague has any to do with how this is the "harshest" climate for young people. if you are going to use logic on me you might try using it on yourself first

 

[JAUQO III-X]

"when in reality right now is one the harshest climates for young people in history."

"Ever heard of a history book?
Those who grew during in the great depression are all dead or on the way out (the youngest of them would be at least seventy, and they wouldn't remember the depression), and do not represent the generations who are middle aged or younger today.

By your logic, you could cite the Black Plague as an example."

i thought we were talking about older generations, i didn't know they had to be alive. & i do not see how the black plague has any to do with how this is the "harshest" climate for young people. if you are going to use logic on me you might try using it on yourself first

You speak of history. There are tons of so called bass players today who know nothing about the history of the instrument or the history of it's players.


Why is that?


one reason is that many do not study.

 

[Deluge Of Sound]

"when in reality right now is one the harshest climates for young people in history."

"Ever heard of a history book?
Those who grew during in the great depression are all dead or on the way out (the youngest of them would be at least seventy, and they wouldn't remember the depression), and do not represent the generations who are middle aged or younger today.

By your logic, you could cite the Black Plague as an example."

i thought we were talking about older generations, i didn't know they had to be alive. & i do not see how the black plague has any to do with how this is the "harshest" climate for young people. if you are going to use logic on me you might try using it on yourself first

What you said:

Nine, I really think the older generation had it harder than you can ever imagine, ever heard of the great depression?

Now, The generation doing the complaining (The same generation +/- as Gard, Jauqo, and Marsalis...) about all of this didn't go through the great depression, and likely their parents didn't either. Hell, I don't even think any of those guys are Baby Boomers.

My point with the black plague was that human beings have always been under duress. I can't imagine the Great depression. I can't imagine being enslaved, I can't imagine the Black Plague, or hunting mammoths or being a tree-dwelling monkey in the lush forest of what is now the Southern Saraha either.

 

[Deluge Of Sound]

You speak of history. There are tons of so called bass players today who know nothing about the history of the instrument or the history of it's players.


Why is that?


one reason is that many do not study.

I think this one is directed at me, but jnuts doesn't use the quote function, so its hard to tell.

In regards to your question, I think that knowing your history and practicing your chops are different things... and I think that the history is vastly more important.

 

[jnuts1]

yeah my computer skills are very sub par. but what i was saying is that i really do not think this generation of young people are coming into the harshest times ever. a lot of the world is still having trouble with clean drinking water & nine thinks it the harshest times . it is just so over the top say that since we have every possible luxury we could ever ask for.

 

[Deluge Of Sound]

Gotchya.

 

[abngourmet]

I'm 48 years old. Just wanted that up front.

I retired from the Army after a 20 year career. My next career of choice will be in the culinary/hospitality industry.

To that end, I enrolled at the New England Culinary Institute in Montpelier, Vermont two years ago. I did this because, as many here have noted, a degree is required to get one's foot in the door in any number of professions or endeavors (regardless of age, I might add). I also felt that a formal education would teach me the correct way of doing things in a professional kitchen as opposed to the wrong way (and believe me, as I learned during two subsequent internships at restaurants, there is a wrong way). I didn't want to learn bad habits, and I wanted to learn as much as I could from the excellent chef-instructors I studied under.

Most of my peers were 30 years younger than me, some less than that. Here are the things, generally speaking, that I noticed about the young people I went to school with as a group.

1 - Many had no discipline at all.
2 - Many didn't understand the concept of punctuality (initially, at least - once they were sent home from class by the Chef, they figured that out pretty quick).
3 - Few had a sense of responsibility - either for themselves or others.
4 - Many were downright unprofessional in and out of the kitchen. By this I mean in appearance (dirty uniforms, unshaven, shoes not polished, etc., which goes against what is stated in the Student Handbook), demeanor (language, leaning on something when they should be cleaning, talking back to the Chef with no reason to do so, etc.), and attitude (did not take criticism well, felt they should be given something as opposed to working for and earning it).
5 - Many put in the minimum effort to graduate/pass a class. Many felt that because they showed up, they should get an A.
6 - Some were openly disrepectful to both their peers and instructors (the instructors dealt with that, for the most part fairly quick).
7 - Many had no clue how bad of an example they set for others and for the community they lived in as students. I literally saw a kid come into the cafeteria the school runs, dressed up like the Joker from a recent Batman movie. He looked like, well, a clown. Everyone knew he was a NECI student, and it made us all look like idiots. Others would show up in the cafeteria wearing their wrinkled pajamas - this is fine in your own home kitchen, but not in a place where, like it or not, you are representing the school you attend.
8. Many had no patience whatsoever. What they wanted, they wanted now, and didn't feel they needed to either wait or work for it.

Were there exceptions? Certainly. I met some very hard working, dedicated and focused young men and women while there, and I'm proud to call them my friends. But, unfortunately, they were in the minority.

It would be easy to blame their parents for such things, but I believe, at a certain point, a person needs to take responsibility for themselves.
These kids were raised the way they were raised, and perhaps it didn't prepare them for the things they face today. But, at some point, they need to man/woman-up and accept the fact that life isn't going to be like it was at home.

I understand that the challenges young folks face today are far different than those faced by my generation. But this doesn't excuse bad attitudes, behavior, demeanor, academic performance, personal responsibility, and respect for others. To me, these attributes apply to any generation, past, present, or future.

Frankly, I think Marsalis is spot on. Parents should stop coddling their kids - the world, quite frankly, is not fair. Not everyone gets to be Victor Wooten, Marcus Miller, or Stanley Clarke. Not everyone gets to be President, a CEO, or a rockstar. You're not going to be told you're doing a good job if you aren't. This doesn't mean people can't have a great and fulfilling life by any means. It does mean that young folks, IMHO should worry less about instant gratification (that Marsalis alludes to here) and more about working hard to be the very best they can be given the talents, skills and gifts that they have.

To those who note that things are "harder" today than they were in the past (need a degree, have student loans to pay off, tough job market, etc., etc.) I'll say this - you can look at them as either challenges or excuses. Those who succeed in my experience view them as challenges, develop a plan to overcome them and execute it. Those who view them as excuses, well, let's just say that in my experience these folks don't do so well. As the saying goes, if you're not part of the solution you're a part of the problem. In other words, if you're not actively taking these challenges on to the best of your ability and working hard to overcome them, you have only yourself to blame.

For the record, I left college (in the late 80s) with about $6500 of school debt (at a public college). I'll leave this one with about $10K (gotta love the post 911 GI Bill!). Most of my peers will leave with far more than that, and that's very unfortunate. However, as posters have noted, that is the world we live in now. It doesn't make it necessarily right, and it sure doesn't seem fair, but it is what it is. My advice to young folks is simply this - the sooner you stop seeing the world how you think it should be and view it instead as it really is, the sooner you will move ahead and succeed in life. Pursue your dreams, seek your ideals, but be prepared to surmount many challenges along the way without complaint if you wish to meet your goals.

My two cents,

Alan