Branford Marsalis' take on students today

[Colin_D]

I don't think kids are any better or worse than they ever have been, someone already pointed out Socrates' Quote, and people have been complaining about how education was better "in the past" since about the civil war.

People don't change much, we've been singing the same songs and telling the same stories since we learned how to bang on a log, or scratch a picture into a cave wall.

 

[Time Consumer]

I don't think kids are any better or worse than they ever have been, someone already pointed out Socrates' Quote, and people have been complaining about how education was better "in the past" since about the civil war.

People don't change much, we've been singing the same songs and telling the same stories since we learned how to bang on a log, or scratch a picture into a cave wall.

Yeah, I think the education was better in the past is a croc of BS, even my cousins who are in grade school surprise me cuz they're learning things that I didn't get to until Jr High so I think education gets better as generations go forward.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Lol, im only 22 so u can take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I take them all with a grain until I know otherwise.


It's pretty wild how many people I see here on a regular basis who have developed concrete opinions on things they know practically nothing about beyond anectdotal "proof". The easy thing to do would be to leave them as they are.

 

[Time Consumer]

I take them all with a grain until I know otherwise.


It's pretty wild how many people I see here on a regular basis who have developed concrete opinions on things they know practically nothing about beyond anectdotal "proof". The easy thing to do would be to leave them as they are.

Lol, yeah, difference with me is I know I still have a lot to learn.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Lol, yeah, difference with me is I know I still have a lot to learn.

Me too. And I thing that's a great attitude to have. I'm a better musician now than I was last year because I didn't stop progressing the first time someone blew smoke up my butt at a gig.

 

[Joey3313]

Hey Gard some people just like to throw darts with no definite target.

There was a definitive target. I was quoting YOUR post.

I was implying that the post I quoted of yours exuded arrogance, yet did not have any indication that you had a real clue on the subject.

Your post was a reply to the dude who is a high school teacher. Whatever, it's fine that you disagree with him, but realistically, if he sees kids every day for 10 months out of the year, he's gonna have some insight that perhaps you (and I) wouldn't. You teach, fine, but I doubt (and correct me if I am wrong here) that you get to spend anywhere near the amount of time near kids that he does.

Not to mention the fact that you keep making these blanket statements. "Kids today...". That may be based on your experience, but that is only a sample. Painting an entire generation based on the few you've had the displeasure of dealing with is a crappy way to look at things.

I volunteer at a food bank, and it just so happens that there are a number of homeless black men that frequent it. Based on this, and using your flawless system of logic, I can deduce that since these men are poor, unemployed, and uneducated, all black people are poor, unemployed, and uneducated. Oh, and you people also enjoy chili. Go figure?

Feel free to yell "discrimination" when you get the chance.

 

[cnltb]

One take on Marsalis's comments might be that he misunderstands his students completely and the job of teaching.
Students need encouragement, and to hear that they are progressing.
This is integral and basic "abc" to teaching-praise your student and he/she'll progress just a little more and enjoy it more, making your job as a teacher easier and more rewarding...
I doubt that they want to hear how great they are although it may come across like it sometimes-just that it is worth for them to continue...
But then of course he may absolutely be saying it as it is- in HIS teaching environment
Just one take on it...


... I haven't had time to read this thread yet, so, sorry if it is at another place by now than the initial video I am talking about....

 

[Jefenator]

My dad was a biology professor. FWIW, he got to be really sick and tired of folks whining about grades but not wanting to do the legwork. (He also observed a long-term trend, curbing creative leeway on the educators' part.)

I admire Branford's plain talk on the subject. I do have to wonder where he's getting his students from. (I just gigged with a young saxophone player who is already better than me and he's not even in high school yet!!!)

 

[darkblack99]

One take on Marsalis's comments might be that he misunderstands his students completely and the job of teaching.

A case might be made for the former (absent contrary data or subjective experience, of course)...But given the influence of Ellis Marsalis, Jr. (Branford and Wynton's father), I'd opine that Branford understands the 'job of teaching' quite well.

The issue as I perceived it was not praising the student per se (certainly a component for success), but the inability of the average student to grasp self-discipline issues in the course of learning, leading to lack of successful curriculum transference. Whether that is the educator's fault - or the student's - is a deeper question, certainly.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

One take on Marsalis's comments might be that he misunderstands his students completely and the job of teaching.
Students need encouragement, and to hear that they are progressing.
This is integral and basic "abc" to teaching-praise your student and he/she'll progress just a little more and enjoy it more, making your job as a teacher easier and more rewarding...
I doubt that they want to hear how great they are although it may come across like it sometimes-just that it is worth for them to continue...
But then of course he may absolutely be saying it as it is- in HIS teaching environment
Just one take on it...

Yeah - it's fair enough - if that's his experience then that's what he has encountered and no point in anybody denying it or arguing with it...

What your points do remind me of though, is that just because somebody is a great musician, doesn't make them a great teacher!!

I have gone to the same Jazz Summerschool each year for the last 10 years or so and there are about 15-20 tutors who are all great UK Jazz pros on varying instruments.

So - some of these guys have won awards and been named best in the UK on their instrument etc etc.

But from being with them in classes and talking to hundreds of students who have been through the course(s) - there is general agreement that some are better teachers than others and that is not necessarily those who would be considered the best musicians.

By that I mean - they get the most out of their students and produce the most improvement, the best performances etc. So, some of the best musicians are not so good at teaching and just end up frustrating their students....?

 

[onlyclave]

One take on Marsalis's comments might be that he misunderstands his students completely and the job of teaching.
Students need encouragement, and to hear that they are progressing.
This is integral and basic "abc" to teaching-praise your student and he/she'll progress just a little more and enjoy it more, making your job as a teacher easier and more rewarding...
I doubt that they want to hear how great they are although it may come across like it sometimes-just that it is worth for them to continue...
But then of course he may absolutely be saying it as it is- in HIS teaching environment
Just one take on it...


... I haven't had time to read this thread yet, so, sorry if it is at another place by now than the initial video I am talking about....

Sorry dude, that's right from the Sesame Street Generation of education: Everybody is special, nobody is wrong, if you don't know the answer just wait and it will be given to you.

Branford is absolutely spot on in his assessment. If you're going to study music with him, you check your ego at the door and disregard what you think you already know, otherwise why are you there wasting his (and your own) time?

It's strange that if Jeff Berlin were to say this exact thing everyone would be hollering to have him crucified. Again.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Branford is absolutely spot on in his assessment. If you're going to study music with him, you check your ego at the door and disregard what you think you already know, otherwise why are you there wasting his (and your own) time?

It's strange that if Jeff Berlin were to say this exact thing everyone would be hollering to have him crucified. Again.

Well - there is a sense in which none of the "Greats" of Jazz were involved in music education to do what they did - they learned on the bandstand and if they made a mistake were fired or had a cymbal thrown at them - like Charlie Parker!

The thing is that now there are less gigs and more music colleges - the world is different and now we expect to learn stuff from sympathetic teachers. Whereas those who pioneered this music just did it and didn't take any classes or correspondence courses - they had no internet or Talkbass - they played and that's what they did!

 

[Barkless Dog]

It's strange that if Jeff Berlin were to say this exact thing everyone would be hollering to have him crucified. Again.

The difference is Berlin attacks different methods & techniques that in my opinion are somewhat narrow.

The problem is everyone needs to be a star as soon as you are born & mediocrity is unacceptable. The problem is not a lot of people are willing to check their egos at the door and really work hard. Kids falsely believe they are stars because their parents either are not honest with them, or do not really understand.

Parenting has changed where parents over see a child's life in every aspect. I believe it is also parents blame for falsely enabling their children, when they are really mediocre. American Idol exemplifies this. You see parents talk up & down about how good their kid can sing & when they sing they can't even sing in key.

 

[onlyclave]

Well - there is a sense in which none of the "Greats" of Jazz were involved in music education to do what they did - they learned on the bandstand and if they made a mistake were fired or had a cymbal thrown at them - like Charlie Parker!

The thing is that now there are less gigs and more music colleges - the world is different and now we expect to learn stuff from sympathetic teachers. Whereas those who pioneered this music just did it and didn't take any classes or correspondence courses - they had no internet or Talkbass - they played and that's what they did!

That was before the academic study was formalized. There was also a time when you learned to write by studying other cave paintings on the wall and we can agree that cat is now spelled C-A-T, right?

If you want to be auto-didactic then go right ahead, but don't be self-taught and step onto the bandstand at a hard bop gig and play all of your best Dixieland riffs and tell everybody how awesome you are and look for the high fives.

There are people who like to play music and there are musicians. I think Branford is making the distinction between them.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

If you want to be auto-didactic then go right ahead, but don't be self-taught and step onto the bandstand at a hard bop gig and play all of your best Dixieland riffs and tell everybody how awesome you are and look for the high fives.

There are people who like to play music and there are musicians. I think Branford is making the distinction between them.

I wasn't saying I agreed with either way - just that in the past there was no choice and if you wanted to play Jazz - you just had to get up there and do it, learning by the reactions you got!

I maybe see the "lack of patience" with current students as a symptom of that situation - as in, "if you were any good you would be out there doing it - not asking me what you should be doing..."

 

[onlyclave]

Parenting has changed where parents over see a child's life in every aspect. I believe it is also parents blame for falsely enabling their children, when they are really mediocre. American Idol exemplifies this. You see parents talk up & down about how good their kid can sing & when they sing they can't even sing in key.

Truth. I've been in Guitar Center on a busy Saturday afternoon and pushed out of the way by a proud parent wheeling out the new $3000 Yamaha Motif 6 keyboard she just bought for her kid because he's going to be a famous rapper and "A Produce-ah".

But nothing has really changed. There are decades of old guitars in closets and under beds because face it, playing music is HARD.

 

[onlyclave]

I wasn't saying I agreed with either way - just that in the past there was no choice and if you wanted to play Jazz - you just had to get up there and do it, learning by the reactions you got!

I maybe see the "lack of patience" with current students as a symptom of that situation - as in, "if you were any good you would be out there doing it - not asking me what you should be doing..."

The lack of patience is a symptom of the path that teacher took. A self-taught blues player who downloads his best licks to his students vs. a formally trained player who had to listen and analyze what he was hearing will tend to teach differently based on their past experiences.

 

[cnltb]

Sorry dude, that's right from the Sesame Street Generation of education: Everybody is special, nobody is wrong, if you don't know the answer just wait and it will be given to you.

You are not getting my point at all it seems.( that's of course, if it is my post you are referring to) But that's alright.

 

[longfinger]

Another point of view to reconsider: Students learn from their teacher. If "all" the students are "full of **it" after years of study with a particular teacher, then there is a strong likelihood those students learned those ways from their teacher who is "full of **it" himself. Said teacher may lack the self-awareness, to realize his students learned by what he showed them, not by what he told them.

 

[NineSpine]

Honestly, I think this is all a bunch of BS. The older generations always think that the younger generations have it easy, are lazy, etc. etc. etc..

None of you had to grow up in a world where a college degree is damn near required to progress in life.

Long gone are the days of getting a job with one company that you could work up through and be set for life.

The unemployment rate for young workers is at a fifty-year high, due to the chaotic job market and the requirement for a college degree to get almost anything that will pay you enough to be above the poverty level.

The minimum wage is at one of it's lowest points in the last fifty years when adjusted for inflation.

College is ungodly expensive compared to before, and as I said, closer to required than ever before, by a longshot.

The Age Discrimination Act only applies to workers over 40.

Older workers are often grandfathered into professions that now required SIGNIFICANTLY more work to even get your foot into the door for. Sure, my mother may not have a college degree and she runs the kitchen at a large juvenile correctional facility, but the people who work *under* her now have to have a college degree. She was there before this requirement.

More students are working their way through college than ever before, and even with that they need student loans just to attend state universities and they enter the job market tens of thousands of dollars in debt.

When you all were growing up, even the entry level jobs at most decent companies provided affordable, good healthcare. Those days are GONE.

A lot of older workers have had their pension funds raided, or they simply don't have the money to retire for other reasons. The result? Older people aren't retiring, opening up less room for the young to take their places in the job market.

And on and on and on and on...

It's not that all of you didn't have your own set of challenges; It's that you want to pretend that we don't have them, when in reality right now is one the harshest climates for young people in history.

Your generations drove the country, and damn near the world, into the ground and now you want to cry that the mess you left us with is BETTER than what you had? Give me a break.