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Branford Marsalis' take on students today

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#61
fdeck said:
The "entitlement generation" thing could just be a meme -- a viral belief that reinforces itself by biasing our expectations. Every teacher would like to think that teaching is harder today because there is something wrong with the kids. And it's also one of those things where it's part truth and part myth.
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I don't think teaching is hard, I love it, and consider it to be a joy. However it is mind-numbing to give the same lesson to a student for the 5-6th time, because they're just not putting any effort in, and it is OBVIOUS. Then when you tell them, they get all bent out of shape, tell their parents, and the parents start accusing YOU of not being a good teacher - "Tommy spends hours in his room with his bass!"

Really? Do you monitor what he is working on? Is he sitting there with tabs playing his favorite Green Day song for hours and hours? Or, is he doing the work assigned every day as he should, then after he's worked through it starting to spend a bit of time on his favorite band?

Which is it????

As the instructor, I KNOW which it is when they arrive for the lesson and cannot even REMEMBER what we talked about the previous lesson, but they can nail that tune.

Parents are responsible for monitoring their kids until the student proves he or she is responsible enough to do the work. Sadly, in my experience, few students or their parents seem to understand that paying me for the time in a lesson is no guarantee of improvement by the student.
 
#62
thudfromafar said:
That said, the education system isn't perfect. I can see a few of my teachers in school viewing ME as this kind of person, but that would be completely wrong. Fact of the matter is, a lot of "school" is just BS and I really didn't want or need to go through half of it, as it was a waste of time and energy -- much of it is only there because it always has been, and it's a political/economical thing.
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I think part of it is that people in MY generation (I'm 30) and younger look at the state of the world and what the older generations have done to it and simply have a hard time taking anyone from those generations too seriously in regards to what might be "the right way" to do things. When you see the horrible mismanagement of the education system, the wars, the national debt, the giant conglomerate corporate takeovers, the joke that we call "politics," etc, etc it starts to simply become "par for the course" to take the advice of those who are older with a grain of salt. (I'm not advocating this viewpoint, just voicing something I've seen and heard from others... and struggle with occasionally myself)

We've spent our lives watching those older than us consistently say one thing while doing the other, and take the easiest road possible while simultaneously being programmed to do the same, and let's not forget that most of us grew up in the 80s and 90s when EVERYONE had a grossly exaggerated sense of entitlement.

Another interesting tidbit, is that many of us in the 30 and under catagory were raised by the children of parents from the 50s and 60s when "tough love" was common. So OUR parents made a specific effort to NOT be like their parents, and as a result ended up swinging their parenting methods too far in the other direction. It also doesn't help that we're pretty much an entire generation without fathers because all of you older folks seemed to be fairly disinterested in actually raising children properly (generally speaking of course).

I guess I'm just elaborating on my earlier point, that it takes a village to raise a child... and a self centered, vapid, apathetic, and under achieving village is going to raise a pretty crappy kid. Funny thing is, most of the people my age who have kids all say "I'm not gonna be like my parents, I'm gonna stick around and raise my kids right" so there may still be hope yet... even if the Gen Xers and Boomers set us back a bit, at least it seems we may be learning from their mistakes.
 
#63
Yeah, kids these days... Here's a quote I read recently:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

-Socrates
 
#64
Gard said:
I don't think teaching is hard, I love it, and consider it to be a joy. However it is mind-numbing to give the same lesson to a student for the 5-6th time, because they're just not putting any effort in, and it is OBVIOUS. Then when you tell them, they get all bent out of shape, tell their parents, and the parents start accusing YOU of not being a good teacher - "Tommy spends hours in his room with his bass!"

Really? Do you monitor what he is working on? Is he sitting there with tabs playing his favorite Green Day song for hours and hours? Or, is he doing the work assigned every day as he should, then after he's worked through it starting to spend a bit of time on his favorite band?

Which is it????

As the instructor, I KNOW which it is when they arrive for the lesson and cannot even REMEMBER what we talked about the previous lesson, but they can nail that tune.

Parents are responsible for monitoring their kids until the student proves he or she is responsible enough to do the work. Sadly, in my experience, few students or their parents seem to understand that paying me for the time in a lesson is no guarantee of improvement by the student.
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That's an interesting point, and I can see where you're coming from. My only teaching experience was at the college level, where the parents are pretty much not in the picture. Also, I taught a course that everybody had to pass in order to stay in college.

As I write this, my daughter is woodshedding for her next violin lesson. We are using the local Suzuki Strings program. One aspect of Suzuki is that parents are expected to take an active role. We are supposed to read a book by Shinichi Suzuki which, although a bit corny, exposes all of us to the same teaching philosophy. Parents are expected to get an instrument and learn with our kids. Thanks to group classes, recitals, and so forth, "Suzuki parents" interact with and reinforce one another.

Of course I'm not saying that you're doing it wrong, but I wonder if there is any material in the extensive Suzuki literature that would help you form a strategy for getting parents involved in their kids' bass lessons. I also wonder if part of the problem is that a lot of parent-type folks don't take the electric bass seriously.
 
#65
bag_of_dirt said:
Yeah, kids these days... Here's a quote I read recently:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

-Socrates
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This, and the post above it.

I suppose it becomes harder to long for the "good ole days" when you realize they weren't ever that good...
 
#66
bag_of_dirt said:
Yeah, kids these days... Here's a quote I read recently:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

-Socrates
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To a degree this shows that there is ALWAYS a belief that the youth are "worthless" or "inferior" to one's own peer group.

Even more specifically I think it shows that the ideals of each generation are always changing and it's foolish to believe that simply because the youth don't do/see things the way YOUR (hypothetical "you," no YOU specifically) generation did that they must have no value, drive, or interests. It can be frustrating when you were brought up to believe certain ideas or dogmas are "the best" and the people younger than you don't seem to agree, but often it's simply because they find other things to be more important... their focus has simply changed (and likely not for better OR worse).

With each new generation comes different challenges, social structures, dogmas, deficiencies, and solutions. The kids nowadays might not focus on specific tasks as heavily as in generations past, but they're pretty dang impressive multitaskers and really great at networking! I'm constantly amazed at how quickly people in their early twenties can resolve "real world" problems with their non-linear "cloud" style problem solving... "well, I don't know, but gimmie just a second... <click> <click> <beep> <boop>... hang on... <buzz>... well, steve's buddy in Iowa says that when that happened to him..."

:D
 
#68
AGREED 1000%.

Poltical Correctness + Entitlement Mentality + Therapy Society = C R A P.

Add in the fact that musicians can be a difficult lot to get along with in general, and you get N I G H T M A R E.

In a lot of band situations, this is all readily apparent. Everyone is offended by criticism, everyone's afraid to offer criticism, and when things don't sound good, everyone wonders why. It's because we don't want to hurt anyones feewings. AAWWWW!!

It really makes me sick, knowing how screwed young people are getting. Public Education is now a Self-Esteem seminar (a failing one at that). Everyone gets a trophy for everything. Therapy has taken the place of education. Parents are neurotic, over-weaning maniacs.

AHHHHGGHGG!!



jmattbassplaya said:
I`d actually take this a step further and say it basically applies to all people these days. It`s what you get when you try to be overly politically correct and say everyone is special, everyone`s opinion is right, everyone is equal, and everyone is entitled to only nice things out of life. People need a wake-up call. You only get what you work for, some people simply are better than you (some are also worse), you can be wrong at times, and you`re only special to your own mother.
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#69
Disagree. I think it's plenty fair to paint with a broad brush. Even if 50% of his students are like that, it's too much.

If 50% of people in a room are jerks, would you want to stay in that room?


smeet said:
Uh, no. I see what he's talking about, but it's an unfair generalization, and if were about a different group than young people, many of you would be in an uproar about it.
He's right about some people.
He's wrong about other people.
Same as in any generation.

Do you think that 100% of the students he sees are like that? If you were an open-minded, level-headed student of his and you heard him say this, how would that make you feel?

I've always liked him, but he's starting to sound more like Wynton. Very talented, but that doesn't mean that everything that comes out of their mouths is the Gospel truth.

And just because something is harsh doesn't mean it's "real."


EDIT: I'll admit that this generation is coddled and always told they are doing great no matter what they do. It is still not fair to paint an entire generation with the same brush. Some people are diligent and open to criticism and always willing to learn from everybody around them.
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#70
jhan said:
AGREED 1000%.

Poltical Correctness + Entitlement Mentality + Therapy Society = C R A P.

Add in the fact that musicians can be a difficult lot to get along with in general, and you get N I G H T M A R E.

In a lot of band situations, this is all readily apparent. Everyone is offended by criticism, everyone's afraid to offer criticism, and when things don't sound good, everyone wonders why. It's because we don't want to hurt anyones feewings. AAWWWW!!

It really makes me sick, knowing how screwed young people are getting. Public Education is now a Self-Esteem seminar (a failing one at that). Everyone gets a trophy for everything. Therapy has taken the place of education. Parents are neurotic, over-weaning maniacs.

AHHHHGGHGG!!
Click to expand...

Who's fault is all of that? The kids? OR is it the generation who's MO is to complain about EVERYTHING and fix NOTHING? I tend to think it's the latter... the kid's are the symptom, not the illness. I've heard the exact same complaints coming from people older than me since I was old enough to notice those sort of things (early teen?), and I haven't seen anyone from that generation make any strides towards resolving any of those problems yet... be it anything from gas prices to healthcare to the education ad infinitum.

funny thing is, the youth all seem pretty gungho about fixing some $&!7 so maybe we should try cutting them some slack and try listening to what THEY think is important a bit more. Obviously the Gen Xers and the Baby Boomers focus on narcissistic self-improvement has left a lot to be desired in society, so maybe it's good that these young kids aren't so dang self obsessed these days!

p.s. please consider placing quotes ABOVE your own statements rather than below, I didn't even notice you had quoted someone until after I responded to you... I thought it was just a signature.
 
#73
John Wentzien said:
Where were you guts on the "Jeff Berlin" thread?:hiding:
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I was sitting there agreeing with many of the points that he made, while staying the hell out of his way. :rollno:

Truth be told, there are lots of folks on this forum who are alarmed about the state of electric bass pedagogy, and who are advocating the same basic stuff (lessons, reading, practice, theory, etc.).
 
#74
fdeck said:
I was sitting there agreeing with many of the points that he made, while staying the hell out of his way. :rollno:

Truth be told, there are lots of folks on this forum who are alarmed about the state of electric bass pedagogy, and who are advocating the same basic stuff (lessons, reading, practice, theory, etc.).
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GOOD..I'm glad its out there on the table...needs to be talked about!
 
#75
jhan said:
Disagree. I think it's plenty fair to paint with a broad brush. Even if 50% of his students are like that, it's too much.

If 50% of people in a room are jerks, would you want to stay in that room?
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If 50% of the people are jerks, is it fair to trumpet to the world that everybody in the room is a jerk? I believe that a roughly equal percentage in any generation is probably lazy jerks. Note the quote from Socrates earlier. Older generations and younger generations have this same tired battle every time. Your parents' generation said the same thing about your generation. If you think that's not true, you are deluding yourself.

Again I say, if this was about a different group, say a particular racial group, you and everybody else in this thread would be acting very differently. Because then it's called prejudice. It's no different here.
 
#76
I really dislike Brandford Marsalis. I respect him for his contributions to jazz, his immense knowledge and skill, but he always comes along like a complete jerk. Always. He always seems very arrogant (much like a certain TB member)
 
#77
smeet said:
If 50% of the people are jerks, is it fair to trumpet to the world that everybody in the room is a jerk? I believe that a roughly equal percentage in any generation is probably lazy jerks. Note the quote from Socrates earlier. Older generations and younger generations have this same tired battle every time. Your parents' generation said the same thing about your generation. If you think that's not true, you are deluding yourself.

Again I say, if this was about a different group, say a particular racial group, you and everybody else in this thread would be acting very differently. Because then it's called prejudice. It's no different here.
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the critical difference these days is that kids have the luxury of a long,indulgent childhood.....when i recall my dads generation of global depression,world war,and the ensuing toll those events had on them,the notion of a prize for merely showing up seems ridiculous.......kids will not give us much if we do not demand it,and today's parents seem to want to be pals with their kids instead of parents.....we have set the bar so low that it requires no effort at all to clear it,and it is at our peril that we allow the current situation to continue
 
#78
baalroo said:
Who's fault is all of that? The kids? OR is it the generation who's MO is to complain about EVERYTHING and fix NOTHING? I tend to think it's the latter... the kid's are the symptom, not the illness. I've heard the exact same complaints coming from people older than me since I was old enough to notice those sort of things (early teen?), and I haven't seen anyone from that generation make any strides towards resolving any of those problems yet... be it anything from gas prices to healthcare to the education ad infinitum.

funny thing is, the youth all seem pretty gungho about fixing some $&!7 so maybe we should try cutting them some slack and try listening to what THEY think is important a bit more. Obviously the Gen Xers and the Baby Boomers focus on narcissistic self-improvement has left a lot to be desired in society, so maybe it's good that these young kids aren't so dang self obsessed these days!

p.s. please consider placing quotes ABOVE your own statements rather than below, I didn't even notice you had quoted someone until after I responded to you... I thought it was just a signature.
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Agreed.

Its my stance that at this point, the root of the problem comes from the cultural values our country began to embrace and endorse around the early 19th Century, as well as the (overall) myth of bringing yourself up by your own bootstraps. There's a direct correlation in my mind between that ideal and the steady increase of overvalued self-worth.

Whatever the case may be, I'm pretty sure someone forgot to put the milk in Brandford Marsalis's coffee that morning. ;)
 
#79
McHaven said:
I really dislike Brandford Marsalis. I respect him for his contributions to jazz, his immense knowledge and skill, but he always comes along like a complete jerk. Always. He always seems very arrogant (much like a certain TB member)
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Sometimes people who come off as arrogant really do know what they're talking about ;)
 
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