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Branford Marsalis' take on students today

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#21
Gard said:
"The idea of what you are is more important then the idea of you actually being that"

That is from their upbringing, and from the society in which they are daily immersed. We are all special, bright shining stars.

The hell we are. You wanna be special, MAKE YOURSELF SPECIAL BY DOING THE WORK NECESSARY TO BE SO. You don't get it for breathing.
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I agree.


Gard said:
I would get with the kids that GOT it, that did the work, put the effort in, and really made something happen. Sadly, they were too rare.
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Very very rare indeed.
 
#22
JAUQO III-X said:
I agree.





Very very rare indeed.
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I figured we were seeing eye-to-eye on this topic. :)

I miss teaching, I may hang my shingle out again soon...but this time, I'm going to limit myself to students that actually do the work. I will even make it clear to the student and parents (where applicable) that the first month's worth of lessons are a trial period for us BOTH - that I am the correct motivating force for the student, and that the student is not wasting both my time and their own.

No more windmills...

:D
 
#23
Gard said:
I figured we were seeing eye-to-eye on this topic. :)
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Yes we are.

Gard said:
I'm going to limit myself to students that actually do the work. I will even make it clear to the student and parents (where applicable) that the first month's worth of lessons are a trial period for us BOTH - that I am the correct motivating force for the student, and that the student is not wasting both my time and their own.

No more windmills...

:D
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I don't have a lot of students(because I don't want and don't have time for a lot) but what you describe above is pretty much my approach.


I've even asked students not to come back.
 
#25
Let me interject a bit of my personal experience, I believe it to be relevant to the topic. Firstly for those who are unaware I have Cerebral Palsy which primarily affects me physically, and I walk with forearm crutches. When I first attended Junior High and "Band" was offered I looked for an instrument to play that I might have the best chance physically of playing. I decided to "try" and audition for Trumpet to be quickly told by the "instructor" that "You walk on crutches, you can't play a Trumpet":rolleyes:
Needless to say that pi$$ed me off, but my point that I think is relevant here is this;

If that "instructor" hadn't been a douchebag and asked or looked at my passion for music rather than making a snap judgement I'd probably be much more educated musically speaking. From my perspective "instructors" can be just as big an ignorant a$$wipe as most students.

I wholeheartedly agree with the assessment on the tepid, apathetic, "I'm great" syndrome this society puts out, but the guy who you choose not to give chance to because of something as silly as I was told, will bite you in the A$$.

Don't waste time on lazy bastriches, but never assume something without legitimate cause either.;)

God Bless, Ray
 
#26
I think Branford is spot on, especially regarding his assessment of academic institutions and the way they function. I've worked as a teaching assistant at the university level and have seen the kind of thing he's talking about first hand. Most recently I had a student complain that I was too harsh in my grading of her paper. The thing was, she couldn't write to save her life. When I pointed this out to her (in as diplomatic a way as possible) she told me that "all" of her previous teachers had felt she was a good writer and that she'd always received good grades. Good grief (as Charlie Brown would have said).
 
#27
His observations can be related to other areas of contemporary work and life. In my 20's I got a job making furniture for just above minimum wage, busted my ass 9 hours a day, overtime, no raises, no pats on the back, no "good job sonny". Made me an incredible woodworker cause I had to suck it up and produce. I see very few kids willing to stick that out today
 
#28
I've thought about this subject since my first post, and I have to back myself up a little bit.

It is not reasonable to say that all students are completely F.O.S. We all know outstanding and somewhat-less-than-outstanding young peoploe who deserve a lot more credit than that. If he had said "...the majority of students today..." it would have been more accurate.

I think they caught Mr. Marsalis on a bad day. I think he was frustrated and he overstated his case by making a blanket statement

His comments on the education industry are dead accurate, though. Administrators and teacher's unions and teachers share greatly in the blame for creating this bizarre attitude that everybody is absolutely wonderful and beyond criticism.
 
#30
LilRay said:
Let me interject a bit of my personal experience, I believe it to be relevant to the topic. Firstly for those who are unaware I have Cerebral Palsy which primarily affects me physically, and I walk with forearm crutches. When I first attended Junior High and "Band" was offered I looked for an instrument to play that I might have the best chance physically of playing. I decided to "try" and audition for Trumpet to be quickly told by the "instructor" that "You walk on crutches, you can't play a Trumpet":rolleyes:
Needless to say that pi$$ed me off, but my point that I think is relevant here is this;

If that "instructor" hadn't been a douchebag and asked or looked at my passion for music rather than making a snap judgement I'd probably be much more educated musically speaking. From my perspective "instructors" can be just as big an ignorant a$$wipe as most students.

I wholeheartedly agree with the assessment on the tepid, apathetic, "I'm great" syndrome this society puts out, but the guy who you choose not to give chance to because of something as silly as I was told, will bite you in the A$$.

Don't waste time on lazy bastriches, but never assume something without legitimate cause either.;)

God Bless, Ray
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There are ABSOLUTELY instructors that should be drawn & quartered, those that will squash any joy out of learning, those that will grind you down for nothing more than their own joy at doing so, or because they're just jerks. No doubt whatsoever. I wish it were legal to drag these disgusting idiots out into public and tar & feather them...then draw & quarter them.

That doesn't let the student in question off the hook either though. The driven, talented student should recognize a poor teacher and seek out a good one.

@ Giraffe: Yes, it is a bit unreasonable to say "all". However, based on my personal direct experience, it is damn near "all", and near enough that you begin to feel it is all when you're IN the situation daily - just like a poor teacher can grind down a good student, a plethora of poor students can grind down a good teacher.
 
#33
Gard said:
There are ABSOLUTELY instructors that should be drawn & quartered, those that will squash any joy out of learning, those that will grind you down for nothing more than their own joy at doing so, or because they're just jerks. No doubt whatsoever. I wish it were legal to drag these disgusting idiots out into public and tar & feather them...then draw & quarter them.

That doesn't let the student in question off the hook either though. The driven, talented student should recognize a poor teacher and seek out a good one.
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Point understood. But along with the "crummy instructors" point, I tried to convey that (though I'm unique circumstances) I wasn't even given a "trial period". The fool who gave me his absolute opinion as though it were fact could've at least given that courtesy.

So Gard, When you decide to give teaching another try, I'm first in line ;) We'll see how good you really are :smug:

:D

God Bless, Ray
 
#34
LilRay said:
Point understood. But along with the "crummy instructors" point, I tried to convey that (though I'm unique circumstances) I wasn't even given a "trial period". The fool who gave me his absolute opinion as though it were fact could've at least given that courtesy.

So Gard, When you decide to give teaching another try, I'm first in line ;) We'll see how good you really are :smug:

:D

God Bless, Ray
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A good instructor never dismisses a potential student out of hand, agreed. That individual is the "drawn & quartered" one I was referring to.

Guys on crutches can't play bass, by the way.

:eek:

;)
 
#35
As a student learning to become a music educator I agree completely with what has been said. I would like to add that the older generation (thus today's teachers) seem to be a little at fault as well. I've had one or two really really good teachers that pushed me and pushed me to my limit and then kept pushing me to do better. Under them my tuning, pitch, rhythm, accuracy, and sight reading went way up. But finding a consistency between teachers has been incredibly difficult as one will be motivated and wanting to push you, and the other will only teach the bare minimum and be incredibly lazy.

I just hope that I can be able to teach my students to their limit and keep pushing.


The level of mediocrity as an acceptable norm has become a poison in today's society.
 
#37
Gard said:
...@ Giraffe: Yes, it is a bit unreasonable to say "all". However, based on my personal direct experience, it is damn near "all", and near enough that you begin to feel it is all when you're IN the situation daily - just like a poor teacher can grind down a good student, a plethora of poor students can grind down a good teacher.
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Hahaha!! Believe me, I hear what you are saying! I used to teach at a community college, and a few hours of trying to get a rise out of a room full of zombies was robbing me of my will to live! I still strongly agree with Mr. Marsalis' sentiments, but I cannot swallow the implication that all students have these serious character flaws.

I think I can agree with your assessment of "...damn near all..."

Can you agree that "...all..." and "...damn near all..." are not the same? I hope so!
 
#38
JAUQO III-X said:
I think he is basing his comments based off of his experience.

He's pretty much on point.
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I think he is absolutely on point, and I agree that he is probably basing his comments on his experience.

I would respectfully suggest that I think he got a little blinded by his frustration with this situation, when he implied that all students fall into that same category. There are some smart, mature, and highly motivated kids out there, easily the equal of anyone from my generation.

Once again, if he had said "the majority" or "the vast majority" or even "damn near all" I would have stuck to my original assessment of "strongly agree". I still strongly agree with everything except the implication that they are all the same. My experience has proven otherwise.

I can hardly believe I am sticking up for young people here, but what's right is right, correct?
 
#40
Roy Vogt said:
Pretty much right on! Makes me think about why folks like Jeff Berlin get such a negative reaction as well. Could it be that it strikes a nerve with some folks?
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He gets negative press for being narrow minded in his views and for always thinking his way is the only right way. It`s no different than kids thinking they`re right and their teacher has no clue what they`re talking about. :hmm:
 
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