• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Branford Marsalis' take on students today

Status
Not open for further replies.
#41
jmattbassplaya said:
He gets negative press for being narrow minded in his views and for always thinking his way is the only right way. It`s no different than kids thinking they`re right and their teacher has no clue what they`re talking about. :hmm:
Click to expand...
I'm sure I have been accused of being narrow-minded in my views for standing on my bass students to make sure they practice, learn to read music and not tab, deal with the bow on URB to play in tune, and too many other ideas to mention.
IIRC, Jaco Pastorius would routinely tell guys to quit playing bass when he was teaching at U of M. It either made them quit or made them so mad they went to the woodshed and learned what they were doing so they could prove him wrong. I live for students to prove me wrong.
Just sayin'....
I remember that being struck out in Little League sure made me go to the batting cage, not getting a gig sure made me practice, my bathroom scale sends me to the gym, etc. Sometimes we need to get a little uncomfortable with ourselves so that "the pain of same is greater than the pain of change". If little Jimmy always wins, he won't try. Sad stuff when you hit the Real World. In the words of Ed Fuqua, "Just one less on the train"....
 
#42
Gard really nailed it:
"You wanna be special, MAKE YOURSELF SPECIAL BY DOING THE WORK NECESSARY TO BE SO."

That is fabulous. I also agree that we shouldn't be painting a generation with one brush, as we start to sound like our parents, their parents, and their parents. . . . : )

Many people are "fronting" with a too-cool-for-school attitude to cover up their own sense of how much they suck. Others get stuck on the idea that nothing they do is good enough, when in fact they stopped sucking years ago. Finding a balance between confidence in one's abilities (after much hard work), and the overwhelming feeling of unworthiness because of one's inadequacies, seems to be a life-long struggle.

(Speaking of sucking -have a look at Dennis Leary's great book "Why We Suck" for a great chuckle about today's society)
 
#43
Giraffe said:
I can hardly believe I am sticking up for young people here, but what's right is right, correct?
Click to expand...

Hey nothings wrong with that. What's right is right.

Roy Vogt said:
Makes me think about why folks like Jeff Berlin get such a negative reaction as well. Could it be that it strikes a nerve with some folks?
Click to expand...

I think it does strike a nerve with some. And people who know nothing about a particular subject do get offended when it's some thing that they know nothing about being explained by some one that does know what they're talking about.
 
#44
As someone who just recently graduated college in May, I'll offer this:

While Mr. Marsalis is undoubtedly right in his assertions, there are plenty of instructors that should take a fair share of the blame in all of this as well. Throughout college I had several professors that would build this image in students heads that once we graduated, we'd have all sorts of job offers thrown at us and we'd all immediately launch into the upper-middle class. All three colleges I attended during my undergraduate career had these types of professors.

Because of that, I've got friends that are 2 or 3 years out of college still waiting tables, waiting to find the job that starts off paying 60 or 70k, because they feel they are entitled to it, and that 30-40k jobs are only for the uneducated. I was recently hired with a company, and while I wish the pay was better, I finally came to the realization high paying jobs aren't just thrown at everyone (especially during a recession) but I guarantee you I'm doing a lot better than my entitled friends working 5-close at local TexMex restaurants waiting for "their" job to come along.
 
#46
jrthebassguy said:
As someone who just recently graduated college in May, I'll offer this:

While Mr. Marsalis is undoubtedly right in his assertions, there are plenty of instructors that should take a fair share of the blame in all of this as well. Throughout college I had several professors that would build this image in students heads that once we graduated, we'd have all sorts of job offers thrown at us and we'd all immediately launch into the upper-middle class. All three colleges I attended during my undergraduate career had these types of professors.

Because of that, I've got friends that are 2 or 3 years out of college still waiting tables, waiting to find the job that starts off paying 60 or 70k, because they feel they are entitled to it, and that 30-40k jobs are only for the uneducated. I was recently hired with a company, and while I wish the pay was better, I finally came to the realization high paying jobs aren't just thrown at everyone (especially during a recession) but I guarantee you I'm doing a lot better than my entitled friends working 5-close at local TexMex restaurants waiting for "their" job to come along.
Click to expand...

+1 I routinely tell my bass students that they will need to be entrepeneurs, incredibly versatile, have a hide like a rhino, and be very persistent and patient if they want a career in the Music Business. I started out with the same junky $50 gigs, bands that went nowhere, and tip bucket or door gigs as anyone. You have to start somewhere.
 
#47
jrthebassguy said:
As someone who just recently graduated college in May, I'll offer this:

While Mr. Marsalis is undoubtedly right in his assertions, there are plenty of instructors that should take a fair share of the blame in all of this as well. Throughout college I had several professors that would build this image in students heads that once we graduated, we'd have all sorts of job offers thrown at us and we'd all immediately launch into the upper-middle class. All three colleges I attended during my undergraduate career had these types of professors.

Because of that, I've got friends that are 2 or 3 years out of college still waiting tables, waiting to find the job that starts off paying 60 or 70k, because they feel they are entitled to it, and that 30-40k jobs are only for the uneducated. I was recently hired with a company, and while I wish the pay was better, I finally came to the realization high paying jobs aren't just thrown at everyone (especially during a recession) but I guarantee you I'm doing a lot better than my entitled friends working 5-close at local TexMex restaurants waiting for "their" job to come along.
Click to expand...


Don't blame that type of mentality on the teachers. For the most part telling young people that if they go to college that afterward you are guaranteed a job in the field you studied is a big con that has been perpetrated for many years. And still going strong.






Good thing as far as i got was an 8th grade education :) Saved a lot of money on high school, college fees and school supplies :)
 
#49
jrthebassguy said:
As someone who just recently graduated college in May, I'll offer this:

While Mr. Marsalis is undoubtedly right in his assertions, there are plenty of instructors that should take a fair share of the blame in all of this as well. Throughout college I had several professors that would build this image in students heads that once we graduated, we'd have all sorts of job offers thrown at us and we'd all immediately launch into the upper-middle class. All three colleges I attended during my undergraduate career had these types of professors.

Because of that, I've got friends that are 2 or 3 years out of college still waiting tables, waiting to find the job that starts off paying 60 or 70k, because they feel they are entitled to it, and that 30-40k jobs are only for the uneducated. I was recently hired with a company, and while I wish the pay was better, I finally came to the realization high paying jobs aren't just thrown at everyone (especially during a recession) but I guarantee you I'm doing a lot better than my entitled friends working 5-close at local TexMex restaurants waiting for "their" job to come along.
Click to expand...

I sincerely hope things improve for your generation. The irony is that those of us who blame young folks for your "sense of entitlement" sure felt entitled to help ourselves to your prosperity by dumping massive loads of debt onto your shoulders.
 
#51
This is at least tangentially related to the subject at hand.

http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/

The article talks about underachievement and it's relation to praise. Specifically, research is showing that "non-specific" praise is not only worthless, it's damaging. Telling a kid "You're so smart" only labels a kid in a way that apparently leads them to be obsessed with being seen as smart. Great article with actual solutions. Of course, it's the sort of thing modern parents don't want to do...
 
#52
I am not sure WHY "kids" (I mean the generations after mine) tend to think this way (but they do!)....maybe it IS the prof's fault.....you are right to say that people graduate college expecting that a "high paying job" is owed to them...and as someone who has hired many people...it drove me nuts!

I am only 45 years old but it seems like "our" generation still was taught to work for what you got and, at times, we were given the "you need to improve" message....

My middle daughter used to be in gymnastics and at every competition EVERY girl got a trophy since the leadership did not want to "hurt" their feelings! luckily my daughter knew, and knows where she needs to improve and works really hard (all of my kids do).

when I was in high school, there were "regular classes" and "honors classes"....now, my kids have "advanced classes", "honor classes", "AP classes" and all other sorts of levels!!! no one takes "general level classes" anymore...

also - what is this about many co-valedictorians?

As you can see, I generally agree with the OP and what Mr. Marsalis says....

We need to change this attitude or we will become a very lazy society that will continue to "expect" to have things handed to them....if this continues, we will cease to exist as a society because nothing will get done because everyone will be 'waiting" for the perfect job to be given to them....

Just my 2 cents.....could write on this topic for hours!

PS - Jauqo - YOU KNOW I am all about the "perfect instrument" and you cannot play bass without the "perfect pose".....


jrthebassguy said:
As someone who just recently graduated college in May, I'll offer this:

While Mr. Marsalis is undoubtedly right in his assertions, there are plenty of instructors that should take a fair share of the blame in all of this as well. Throughout college I had several professors that would build this image in students heads that once we graduated, we'd have all sorts of job offers thrown at us and we'd all immediately launch into the upper-middle class. All three colleges I attended during my undergraduate career had these types of professors.

Because of that, I've got friends that are 2 or 3 years out of college still waiting tables, waiting to find the job that starts off paying 60 or 70k, because they feel they are entitled to it, and that 30-40k jobs are only for the uneducated. I was recently hired with a company, and while I wish the pay was better, I finally came to the realization high paying jobs aren't just thrown at everyone (especially during a recession) but I guarantee you I'm doing a lot better than my entitled friends working 5-close at local TexMex restaurants waiting for "their" job to come along.
Click to expand...
 
#53
When I was in music school I had a instructor who was/is a very talented Jazz guitarist who has worked with a who's who of the Jazz world and continues to to this day. I was very excited that he would be taking over my private lessons my second yr of school because he was a world class player doing what i wanted to do.Well on a weekly basis he tore me a new one,it literally was the hardest situation I had ever dealt with at that point of my life and made me question what I was trying to do with my life..............and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. What it did was prepare me for the fact that not only was I not owed anything by the world but that when it came to music,there were people whose passion and intensity superseded the need to be "Nice"

As a teacher now I am much nicer but I am very selective and will drop someone in a heartbeat if they wast my time
 
#54
basspraiser said:
PS - Jauqo - YOU KNOW I am all about the "perfect instrument" and you cannot play bass without the "perfect pose".....
Click to expand...


:D


willgroove2 said:
As a teacher now I am much nicer but I am very selective and will drop someone in a heartbeat if they wast my time
Click to expand...



As you should.


I have no sympathy for students who want to waste my time while in the midst of wasting theirs.
 
#55
I took trumpet lessons for the last nine months, after 6 years of self-learning. For nine months, my teacher told me, work on this more, you need to practice this exercise more, etc. He only takes 6 students, and he has to get assurances from their band conductor that they are good enough, and will practice enough. He doesn't do lessons over the summer, so they've stopped now. But either the last or second last lesson, was the first and only time he ever said anything like a compliment about my playing. I worked my butt off six years prior, I did even more while he taught me, I learned a ton from him, and boy did I feel good when he told me I had done well.
 
#56
I'm "only" 22 but I pretty much agree with this whole thread. I have a lot of peers and friends with this attitude, and I can't stand it. I have tried to help many people understand what they need to do to improve. However, often they just take it as an insult. My roommate is like this. If I try to help him, he will only argue his own point of view and/or think that I'm trying to tell him "I'm better" than him. He won't note the fact that I'm a musician and going into music education, he doesn't care -- he is right, always.

That said, the education system isn't perfect. I can see a few of my teachers in school viewing ME as this kind of person, but that would be completely wrong. Fact of the matter is, a lot of "school" is just BS and I really didn't want or need to go through half of it, as it was a waste of time and energy -- much of it is only there because it always has been, and it's a political/economical thing. Private lessons are a different story. You choose to be there, or not. If you want to improve, you better listen to people better than you.

It is true, a lot of people are just delusional and don't care about real progress -- they just want ego coddling. It's sick.

(Oh, just watched the video. I don't completely agree with Branford's statements as blanket statements, and I'm kinda against the whole grading/school system as a perfect truth kinda thing. But generally, I agree. He's just a little too emotional and exaggerating a bit, as a few posts stated).
 
#58
OK, so I just heard 5 great upright bassists between the ages of 13-15 who auditioned for the Belmont String Crossings Camp. One camper, Boris, is not only playing Classical URB very, very well but he also writes instrumental Rock Guitar Music in the style of Frank Zappa and Steve Vai. Obviously, he's not who Bransford is talking about-neither are any of the other String Campers.
I feel better about all this....:)
 
#59
The "entitlement generation" thing could just be a meme -- a viral belief that reinforces itself by biasing our expectations. Every teacher would like to think that teaching is harder today because there is something wrong with the kids. And it's also one of those things where it's part truth and part myth.
 
#60
Roy Vogt said:
OK, so I just heard 5 great upright bassists between the ages of 13-15 who auditioned for the Belmont String Crossings Camp. One camper, Boris, is not only playing Classical URB very, very well but he also writes instrumental Rock Guitar Music in the style of Frank Zappa and Steve Vai. Obviously, he's not who Bransford is talking about-neither are any of the other String Campers.
I feel better about all this....:)
Click to expand...

Roy, I'm certain that Branford did not intend this to be a "blanket" statement - there are certainly young musicians out there that are busting their hump to become truly talented. What I believe Branford was getting at, and what I have been trying to say, is that so few of them are truly "getting it".

I'd estimate in my experience - which is far removed from the thin air in which you operate! ;) - that it is about 80-90% of the students I interact with are just going through the motions because mommy & daddy insist, or it's the "cool" thing to do.

I'm heartened to hear that you're seeing kids that really understand the necessary efforts to hone their skills and become truly good musicians. Now if we can just find away to get LISTENERS to actually recognize and appreciate good music again! That's the REAL challenge, sadly...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back