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Brazilian rosewood

#42
BobXboB said:
Farmed trees and old growth trees yield lumber than can be quite different. There are woods that are indistinguishable from BR tonally. Unless of course you know which wood is which before hearing them, then the difference is huge and you can jack the price up.

Even Sadowsky himself says you can't hear any difference live or in a recording between different genus of woods let alone species.
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BR still will look nicer than other rosewoods if it is farmed or old growth. I realize the wood doesn't get extremely dense for ~ 50 years, but farmed BR >>> other rosewoods in looks and possibly tone.
 
#43
JMDT said:
BR still will look nicer than other rosewoods if it is farmed or old growth. I realize the wood doesn't get extremely dense for ~ 50 years, but farmed BR >>> other rosewoods in looks and possibly tone.
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Can you be specific in any way? What is the difference? How is the tone different?

Of all the wood experts I deal with none would make such a statement about a wood with so much variation in color, figuring and weight.
 
#44
it's not like there's some kind of problem with cutting trees down in Brazil, is there?

They've got loads of those things. Trees, I mean. And no one lives there but, y'know, pygmies. Who are all little. So who cares if they get pissed off. They'd be all like, Whoa, don't cut down our home. And we'd be like, who's going to stop us, you? and they'd be like, Well no, but we can give you a really nasty bite on the shin.

...aaargh, OK, enough of this. My point is, there are restrictions on exotic woods for a number of reasons, but it can be (in some circumstances) a highly unethical industry. I hope that most luthiers these days use suppliers who are working to turn this around.

EDIT: maybe didn't mean to be quite so sarcastic :) . i'm sure lots of others on here are aware of this kind of thing!
 
#45
knumbskull said:
...aaargh, OK, enough of this. My point is, there are restrictions on exotic woods for a number of reasons, but it can be (in some circumstances) a highly unethical industry. I hope that most luthiers these days use suppliers who are working to turn this around.
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Ethics? Not a huge concern :)

When BR is restricted due to species endangerment using it could be considered similar to using shark fin picks and disposable baby fur seal straps.

Psst, I got some panda spleen, make your tone last all night long ;)
 
#47
BobXboB said:
Post a sound clip and we can tell by the tone :)

A more scientific way would be with a microscope. Link Removed but that can't always tell the species. There are a number of luthiers who claim cocobolo can replace BRW tonally as they are both one of the harder rosewoods. Just don't ever call it Mexican Rosewood or no one will want it. :ninja:
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Cocobolo is very similar in sound to BR, but it is also much harder to work with. For my drum shells, I no longer can get Cocobolo segmented shells as both of my builders are very allergic to the dust. Both Cocobolo and Makassar Ebony can be very toxic if not worked with under the right conditions. Coco is also very oily, so you have to use more harsh epoxy type glues. My stave shell maker can make snare drums in coco, but not full kits because of the glue problem. Cocobolo makes AMAZING sounding drums, so I'm sure it would make good sounding basses too.
 
#48
BobXboB said:
Ethics? Not a huge concern :)

When BR is restricted due to species endangerment using it could be considered similar to using shark fin picks and disposable baby fur seal straps.

Psst, I got some panda spleen, make your tone last all night long ;)
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There's a big difference between Pandas and rosewood trees. If all the Pandas die, they're gone forever, but if all the rosewood trees happen to get cut down, we can always plant more. There is a seed bank in Norway that seeds to every known plant stored incase they are ever needed.

What would you rather be done with rosewood that is cut down and in storage? A large bonfire under the stars...
 
#49
JMDT said:
There's a big difference between Pandas and rosewood trees. If all the Pandas die, they're gone forever, but if all the rosewood trees happen to get cut down, we can always plant more. There is a seed bank in Norway that seeds to every known plant stored incase they are ever needed.

What would you rather be done with rosewood that is cut down and in storage? A large bonfire under the stars...
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and they'll cut down more.

Also, to a previous poster, BR is an endangered species, hence the moratorium on its use.

There are lots of alternatives that don't endanger the planet. Yet another reason that I won't buy a Sadowsky, or any other luthier's instrument that still uses the stuff. Pure unbridled greed, regardless of cost. And it's not like this is obscure or arcane knowledge. My favorite builder, Mr. Tobias, is extremely aware and sensitive about stuff like this.

Invalid Link Removed

Cheers,
Cameron
 
#50
knumbskull said:
i thought one of the reasons brazillian rosewood was so expensive was its rarity...
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I'm pretty sure it is, I know it was logged pretty heavy for decades so it's rarer in the wild and the attempts to keep it from going extinct have kept the last few trees from the market so it's rare to find for sale.

And as with many rare things that are desirable some of what's sold as BR is not. Actually a good chunk of what's sold as rosewood isn't even rosewood, Rickenbacker bubinga fingerboards for example.
 
#51
JMDT said:
There's a big difference between Pandas and rosewood trees.
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You got me there :)
If all the Pandas die, they're gone forever, but if all the rosewood trees happen to get cut down, we can always plant more. There is a seed bank in Norway that seeds to every known plant stored incase they are ever needed.
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What if all the habitat for BR is gone? What if the biodiversity needed to bring the trees to fruition is gone? This isn't like all those ark stories where a single breeding pair can replenish the earth. Did you know there is also seed banks for panda sperm? Can we comfortably kill all them off now?

Also, your claims for the seed bank are a bit overzealous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Global_Seed_Vault

If we are going to kill all the living examples there's a pretty good chance that we're not going to stop one day and say jeez, let's tear down those apartment buildings and plant trees for bass fingerboards that we can harvest in 100 years.
What would you rather be done with rosewood that is cut down and in storage? A large bonfire under the stars...
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Yes, that's exactly what I want. Your binary polarization states my intentions perfectly. :D
 
#54
rschuh said:
Cocobolo is very similar in sound to BR, but it is also much harder to work with. For my drum shells, I no longer can get Cocobolo segmented shells as both of my builders are very allergic to the dust. Both Cocobolo and Makassar Ebony can be very toxic if not worked with under the right conditions. Coco is also very oily, so you have to use more harsh epoxy type glues. My stave shell maker can make snare drums in coco, but not full kits because of the glue problem. Cocobolo makes AMAZING sounding drums, so I'm sure it would make good sounding basses too.
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Cocobolo is pretty nasty to work with. I found a trick for using it with aliphatic resins that seems to work well. Use a Japanese style finishing scraper, those rectangular pieces of steel with a slightly hooked edge, and immediately before gluing completely scrape the whole surface to be glued. This seems to expose fresh wood before the resins seep out and gives a chance for the glue to adhere. I would actually do that on all types of wood but it's most helpful on the oily stuff.
 
#55
BobXboB said:
If we are going to kill all the living examples there's a pretty good chance that we're not going to stop one day and say jeez, let's tear down those apartment buildings and plant trees for bass fingerboards that we can harvest in 100 years.Yes, that's exactly what I want. Your binary polarization states my intentions perfectly. :D
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Honestly, why doesn't a commercial logging company buy a large plot of land in Brazil and begin to grow such trees for the sole purpose for later harvesting. It is done with trees for paper and christmas trees in the US (it always amazes me when people think using paper results in cutting down rainforests). There's obviously a market for rosewood, mahogony, etc. but noone has started a legitimate farm.

That way all the old growth rainforests could be made into protected parks and the trees would not be disturbed, but the wood could still be harvested. Sounds like this would be the smart thing to do to me.
 
#57
JMDT said:
Honestly, why doesn't a commercial logging company buy a large plot of land in Brazil and begin to grow such trees for the sole purpose for later harvesting. It is done with trees for paper and christmas trees in the US (it always amazes me when people think using paper results in cutting down rainforests). There's obviously a market for rosewood, mahogony, etc. but noone has started a legitimate farm.

That way all the old growth rainforests could be made into protected parks and the trees would not be disturbed, but the wood could still be harvested. Sounds like this would be the smart thing to do to me.
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Tree farms have existed for many decades. Why would you say no one has done this? Lumber is only one of the reasons we destroy rainforests. Population growth, coffee, sugar and beef cause more damage than logging.

There are also other benefits to rain forests besides being a source for our unlimited consumption.
 
#59
Jean Baudin,

Very very nice bass there. The number of stirngs on the fingerboard is very intimidating though!

I don't know about their application to basses, but brazilian rosewood is perhaps the most legendary tonewood for acoustic guitars. Not to mention among the most beautiful. Luthiers tend to favour quarter sawn and straight grained brazilian rsoewood for guitars for what they believe to be greater stability. Flatsawn examples that are more recent, cut from the stumps of cut down trees, are less-favoured by especially makers of more traditional-styled guitars.

Besides, nothing smells as nice as a freshly-made brazilian rsoewood guitar...
 
#60
Also, I believe that brazilian rosewood takes quite a long time to grow and that younger brazilian rosewood lacks the spiderwebbing and graining that old growth brazilian rseowood has and that is a big reason why they are so beautiful. As such farming brazilian rosewood may be an extremely kong term investment!

BTW there is plenty of brazilian rosewood left that was cut down before the CITES treaty and that is being stockpiled by tonewood dealers abd luthiers. Almost all of the br wood that is being used in the guitars being sold nowadays probably come from this stockpile, so it is unlikely that the guitar industry in the USA has caused many br trees in Brazil to be illegally cut down. More likely that the furniture industry and other users of the wood and illegal clearing of land are the main causes of scarcity in br wood.
 

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