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Double Bass Bromberg/Lemur

#61
It always bugged me when people put their likes in a special "untouchable" category, like it's so special that it must be kept pure and making money from it is a bad thing unless it's done their way. It reminds me of fans of obscure bands who turn around and hate them when they have a hit record just because they're not in a special "club" anymore.

Brian, I hope you don't change a thing as a result of this thread. The only person you have to answer to is yourself. If you deem your new bass a success when it's done, I'm sure people will love it and this discussion will be moot.
 
#62
Most of you are too young to remember this. Back in the early 60's, many of us got into this jazz cello thing. Ray, Red, Sam Jones, ElDee Young, Percy and on and on..the originator of all this, of course was Oscar Pettiford in the 50's. Ray got together with Kay basses and came out with the Ray Brown Jazz Cello. This thing was blond and featured bass machine style tuners. I don't know how many they sold, and I sure don't remember anyone jumping all over Ray about it! By the way, none of these guys except Oscar and Red played in tune.
 
#63
Brian Bromberg said:
T-Bal, you have totally misunderstood the whole reason and point of doing this project. How many thousand's of Strad copy violins are there in the world today? And why are there so many? The whole point of this project is to replicate a very special and unique instrument and make it avalible for the bass playing world. The basses are hand carved by some of the most respected and succsessful modern luthiers of our time. The 300 year old Guersam Italian bass that they are replicating has very unique domensions and wood thickness then any other bass that the Lemur people have seen before. If that helps make these basses good instruments and hopefully sound great, then what's wrong with that?

The only intention here is to try and make great basses by very talented makers and bring them to the bass playing world at a price that they can afford. Most people can't pay $100,000 or more for an old Italian bass. If we can try and replicate that kind of instrument as well as honoring the orignal luthier's magic, then we have done what we set out to do and hopefully many bassists will like the instruments and want to play them.

Try and look at the big picture here and understand the meaning behind the project. If the bass is not for you or you don't understand why we are doing it, then don't buy the bass. Play what's right for you, just don't judge the basses, the people involved with the project, or the players who do like them and want to buy them for themselves. I guess when the basses are built we will see how they are................Brian
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I, for one, am very interested to hear (and see) how this turns out. There have been endless discussions, assertions, and conjectures on TB regarding what makes a particular instrument sound like it does. Of course, there really is some good science out there with which, understandably, many here are not familiar. I do not mean to be critical by stating that.

This does, after all, come down to physics. It is not magic that makes a bass sound like it does. Now, if the shape of the instrument and the thickness of the wood are matched, what else is there in terms of matching the resonating body that is Brian's bass? Well, of course there is the character of the wood itself, the glue, the varnish, the setup, etc.

The pessimists would say that there are just too many variables to consider to be able to match, in any practical sense, a given instrument. I prefer to remain an objective empiricist. Hey, Lemur is funding what amounts to an interesting experiment!

I don't think many here (and I'm guessing that Brian is included) believe that the copies will be audibly indistinguishable from his masterpiece. Okay, the ad copy may lean in that direction but it is, after all, ad copy. I'm guessing, given the talent involved, the basses manufactured will, in their own right, be of high quality and desirable sonic character.
 
#66
KSB - Ken Smith said:
In the mention and agreement that the sound comes partially from the players hands I need to point out something here. I agree that two people get two different sounds out of the same Bass BUT a person cannot make one Bass sound like another using his hands. I own and have owned dozens of Basses and every one sounds different. Yes, I try to sound like me musically and feel wise but the tone, volume, projection and eveness of the Bass IS limited to the Bass in hand. There is not a player in the world that can make a Shen sound like a Prescott or a Kay sound like a Testore.

Maybe what Lemur needs to do is make some copies or Brians hands!! Huh, huh??:D

I am sure they will turn out some nice new Basses in both price ranges but 300 years is 300 years. It doesn't come in a bottle!
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Yes, Ken, we've been here before. It's the instrument AND the hands as I said here.

As far as 300 years being 300 years, the point of my post just above was to attempt to think about de-mystifying all of this. What is it about 300 years? It is likely how the wood ages over that time, as well as other factors. The interesting aspect of the endevor is to understand the characteristics of the wood and the changes that produce the desirable sound after that time. Surely, it is not time, per se. It's somehow in the physics. Can any of the desired characteristics be coaxed from the wood on a new bass or is there no substitute for time? (That's a rhetorical question, for now).
 
#67
If one of those basses somehow finds it's way to Houston, TX, I'll try one. I know what Brian's bass feels like, even though it's been about a million years since I got to play on it...if it's reasonably close in feel and tone, I might become an upright player. Question, though- will it come completely festooned with all of the same pickups as Brian's or will it be "nekrid"? Or will it have one pickup included...or your choice of pickups? Not being an upright guy myself, but an electric fiend, I was wondering how this would work.
 
#68
Ken Smith et al,

Thanks for all that feedback. Let me just add that there have been several posts on TB regarding a particular person's set-up, what bass, p/u, amp etc. Drew Gress, Larry Grenadier and others were discussed. I'll throw in Eddie Gomez too. He borrows basses when he travels and he said something to the effect that he liked the challenge of playing on different instruments. The conclusions drawn from all the bass/set-up talk was that these players still sounded like themselves, regardless of what instrument they were playing or what amp/pick-up they were using. I'm dead certain that if Brian played my bass he wouldn't sound anything like Roger Mouton. He would sound just like Brian Bromberg.
 
#69
KSB - Ken Smith said:
Go back and read my first post. In short the wood and varnish of 300 years ago does NOT exist anymore. Not even the greatest makers have duplicated the old Italian stuff so what's the point?
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What's the point? The point is to try and construct a good bass.

KSB - Ken Smith said:
A good Bass is a good Bass. I have played many new Bassses that are great for new but after owning so many OLD basses, I can't be satisified without one. If you have played what I have played over the years, you might understand more than just the words.
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I believe I do understand more than just the words. No, I haven't played everything you have played but I agree that there seems to be something about old basses that one just doesn't find in newer ones. No disagreement there.

KSB - Ken Smith said:
The Bass comes first, way first. Then the hands to make it sound "its" best. Not the other way around.
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I'll leave this one for the thread.

KSB - Ken Smith said:
It's not just the 300 year old wood. It's the 300 year old 'Bass' and its "life experiences" to date! How do you put experience into the Bass? The measurements mean very little if the wood and varnish etc is not EXACT! The Germans did this and made every Bass the same with varied results. Great tone doesn't come from numbers.
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You are asking my question. How do you do that? It is an empirical question whether one needs the wood and varnish to be "exact" in order to capture the major sonic qualities. Notice, I did not say in order to make the bass "indistinguishable" from the original. What physical changes are brought about by those "life experiences?"

Now, you may believe that the physical factors are too numerous and too varied and too interactive for current technology to grasp, identify, and control. You may be quite correct! I believe, however, that if you know what numbers to measure, the relevant parameters can be quantified. We simply may not even be close to being able to this. Granted. The differences, do, however, lie in physical properties. Of that there can be no doubt.
 
#70
Hello Brian,

I was wondering if you could give us some background information
on the builder of your instrument.

The Lemur site mentions Early 1700 Matteo Guersam Italian Bass.

I understand you got the bass when you were 16 years old.
 
#71
Roger Mouton said:
Ken Smith et al,

Thanks for all that feedback. Let me just add that there have been several posts on TB regarding a particular person's set-up, what bass, p/u, amp etc. Drew Gress, Larry Grenadier and others were discussed. I'll throw in Eddie Gomez too. He borrows basses when he travels and he said something to the effect that he liked the challenge of playing on different instruments. The conclusions drawn from all the bass/set-up talk was that these players still sounded like themselves, regardless of what instrument they were playing or what amp/pick-up they were using. I'm dead certain that if Brian played my bass he wouldn't sound anything like Roger Mouton. He would sound just like Brian Bromberg.
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Amen.
 
#73
Tumbao said:
He would sound like Brian playing your 40 years old German bass.
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Or, to put it as Ken sees it, it would sound like a 40 year old bass being played by Brian.

I have a 100+ year old Italian bass, and a lower level bass I bought new in 1997. Ken's certainly right, there's no comparison in the sound of the two of them.

That said, when I was a young man and I first heard Ray Brown, I was totally taken with his tone. I think that most of us, when we first hear a great bassist, feel something for their tone. It's sort of the first level of understanding them. Anyway, since that first time, I've heard Mr. Brown play on several other basses, his French bass, and the road basses he travelled with. What I found was that the essential elements of his sound were always still there for me, and gave me that same feeling, even with a lesser instrument. So clearly for me, the part of "tone" that is more important comes from the player. I think that in Ken's case, we should try to remember that he's a builder of fine wooden instruments, and so he's spent a lot of time dealing with tone in the pure sense, in the sense of what artistic combination of woods and craft will create the best (or the desired) sound when it's used. Surely years of perfecting his own craft affects his opinion on this. Also, Ken seems to be the only guy participating in this thread who is mostly playing classical music on his basses (these days). And in classical music, the instrument IS more important, since technique isn't generally as individualistic as in jazz. So I can really see why his point of view is different from most of us on this thread.

Ken, I think it's maybe safe to say that when someone says "it's all in the player's hands" it's really just expressing the fact that while they may have always loved, say, PC's tone and wanted to sound like that, they never said to themselves "I want to sound just like a Testore."

Brent
 
#74
" And in classical music, the instrument IS more important, since technique isn't generally as individualistic as in jazz. So I can really see why his point of view is different from most of us on this thread.

Ken, I think it's maybe safe to say that when someone says "it's all in the player's hands" it's really just expressing the fact that while they may have always loved, say, PC's tone and wanted to sound like that, they never said to themselves "I want to sound just like a Testore."

Brent"

Excellent points, however the sheer playing experience of playing Jazz on my Juzek Ply vs. 90 year old German vs. 180+ year old Prescott is completly different from oneanother and I find myself playing each differently. Perhaps having somewhat of a different "voice" on each.

BG
 
#75
I can't resist saying this: Ken Smith makes me want to play electric bass again. GREAT website by the way and I always liked his ads, presentation of products etc.

I had been asked to play EB on one song at a gig this weekend. The guitar player said the song called for it. He doubles on EB and guitar. Mostly guitar. I said "you play it". He said "what will you do?" I said, "I'll play percussion or something". I haven't touched my EB except to move it around in the closet a few trimes. The chance came and went. As it turned out we played a differnt song altogether, no EB at all, but it got me to thinking......what if I???? Thanks Ken Smith for all your posts. BTW, you look good next to an upright.
 
#76
First I want to say that this forum is fantastic and I applaud TalkBass.com for providing a place for this kind of exchange, awesome! Everyone is entitled to their views and that makes the world so amazing. Are there rules? Some yes but I think mankind is here to break them and keep pushing them forward.

As far as the bass goes I can assure you that any new bass will never sound like a 300 year old bass. With that said that doesn't mean that a new bass will sound bad, just different. I have played many old basses that didn't sound good. I have also played many old basses that felt terrible to play. Over time we have learned how to make necks and fingerboard set up's way more comfortable to play.

There is no question that I will sound like me on any bass that I play because I only know how to play the way I do. The same goes for any musician. We all have our style and that comes through on any bass. The whole point here is that the physical dimensions/wood thickness of a bass will have it's own sound as well. My bass is not very big, a small 3/4 size. When I played a huge monster full size Prescott that Eugene Wright used to play that Don Robertson has, the sheer cubic inches of that bass because of it's size was F'ing enormous. When you really plucked it, that bass seemed to move the room! It was loud and huge. But if that bass was as small as mine, there is no question that it would have much less volume and mass then a full size bass. Physics is physics.

That is the whole point behind the Lemur bass project. My old bass is different from most, for whatever reason who knows? But it is different. We think that because the inside dimensions and wood thickness of the top, back, and sides are different then other basses, that the new ones will also have some of the qualities as the original. Even if it picks up just a little bit, then that would be very cool. Anyway you look at it, it is a great experiment for sure and very educational indeed for me. I find the whole thing an amazing journey and pretty amazing for me to be working with some of the best modern luthiers in the world. It truly is an honor to be a part of that.

As far as the maker Matteo Guersam? I have researched for 25 years and have found nothing about him or this instrument. Something that is interesting is that there are names of other people in my bass from royal families from Italy and Austria. I looked them up in the encyclopedia and low and behold, I found them! So from that at least I know that the bass is real, from Italy, and made in the early 1700's. That is all I have ever found on it.............Brian
 
#77
Ooops! I'm a little embarrassed. Brian, you're one of the best doublers ever. You must have read my post. Where I said I haven't touched my EBs except to move them around in the closet? No offense. As I posted to Ken Smith, I am inspired to play some EB again. I just have little time for anything but upright.

I'm an acquaintance of Evan Stone. I promise to come to one of your gigs and say hello.
 
#78
I can't wait to see what the copies will look like. Also, it'll be interesting to hear the new bass when Brian takes his "copy" on the road.

Bassic83 said:
Question, though- will it come completely festooned with all of the same pickups as Brian's or will it be "nekrid"? Or will it have one pickup included...or your choice of pickups? Not being an upright guy myself, but an electric fiend, I was wondering how this would work.
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If it does, you may need to have an IBEW guy on stage just to plug it in. :D

gomez
 
#80
KSB - Ken Smith said:
Maybe this will be the first DB to come with a 'Manual'..

Can you imagine how many 'less' stupid questions we would hear on TB if DBs came with instructions? Wow, what an idea. Now, just because of this sudden 'brainstorm', I wanna put out a model of some sort just write a 'Manual'..lol :D
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You could compile the 'TB Manual'...all of the tech stuff from the best posts by fellow TBers with any really worthwhile info, put in pamphlet form, or a pdf file...Eh?

gomez
 

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