Building Walking Basslines Lesson 1

[edfriedland]

Applying the chromatic approach to the first of the ten standards isn't so easy... because of the minor chords. Going to G from Dm7 through an F sharp (while the F natural is quite important in Dm7 ), then going to A7 from Em7 through a G sharp... OK, you can get to the target from the upper chromatic note as well, but I'd like to ask: is the way I described, and which works fine in major chords (and gives a smooth transition when going upwards), acceptable when dealing with minor chords, or does one have to respect the minor third that's in the chord?

Guess what? You CAN use lower chromatic approach when going from a minor chord. Yeah, I know the chord structure calls for F natural on Dm7, but the chromatic approach to G7 (F#) will override the chord tone. It's all about moving ahead, the approach note takes you to the next chord, so it's relationship to the first chord is secondary. If you froze that moment it might sound bad, but... we don't, so go ahead and use the Major 3rd, it creates a very strong pull to the target note.

 

[Lambic]

Guess what? You CAN use lower chromatic approach when going from a minor chord. Yeah, I know the chord structure calls for F natural on Dm7, but the chromatic approach to G7 (F#) will override the chord tone. It's all about moving ahead, the approach note takes you to the next chord, so it's relationship to the first chord is secondary. If you froze that moment it might sound bad, but... we don't, so go ahead and use the Major 3rd, it creates a very strong pull to the target note.

Yesss! Great, thanks!

 

[slybass3000]

Guess what? You CAN use lower chromatic approach when going from a minor chord. Yeah, I know the chord structure calls for F natural on Dm7, but the chromatic approach to G7 (F#) will override the chord tone. It's all about moving ahead, the approach note takes you to the next chord, so it's relationship to the first chord is secondary. If you froze that moment it might sound bad, but... we don't, so go ahead and use the Major 3rd, it creates a very strong pull to the target note.

This is for me the place where the right usage of approaches should be strongly analyzed. If you only have one note to play after the root it should be the minor third on a minor chord and not the major third unless you use a double chromatic approach from below to make the minor third the right note and the F# a passing note and not a wrong chord-tone.


To me playing a major third on a minor chord without a preparation by a double chromatic approach is a big NAY-NAY !

 

[Lambic]

This is for me the place where the right usage of approaches should be strongly analyzed. If you only have one note to play after the root it should be the minor third on a minor chord and not the major third unless you use a double chromatic approach from below to make the minor third the right note and the F# a passing note and not a wrong chord-tone.


To me playing a major third on a minor chord without a preparation by a double chromatic approach is a big NAY-NAY !

From this point of view playing A-C#-D-G# in bar five of the first standard progression would be wrong?

 

[Billnc]

I've never been called to task for playing the major 3rd as Ed describes particularly at medium tempos and above. Ron Carter seems to use the device a lot.

 

[edfriedland]

This is for me the place where the right usage of approaches should be strongly analyzed. If you only have one note to play after the root it should be the minor third on a minor chord and not the major third unless you use a double chromatic approach from below to make the minor third the right note and the F# a passing note and not a wrong chord-tone.


To me playing a major third on a minor chord without a preparation by a double chromatic approach is a big NAY-NAY !

Well, then consider me wrong, because I do this everyday. What you consider "right" is really an opinion. You're entitled to it, and looking at it logically - it's not hard to justify your assertion. But, as I said, the approach is more about where it's going than where it's been. In a bar with two changes - Dm7/G7 - you have one beat to state the root, then use an approach to the next chord. In a bar with one chord - Dm7 going to a G7 chord after 4 beats - the 4th beat of the bar is ALL about the next chord so using the major 3 as a chromatic approach is totally acceptable in my book (pun intended).

 

[slybass3000]

From this point of view playing A-C#-D-G# in bar five of the first standard progression would be wrong?

To me yes. I guess the fourth beat you mention is G going to Ab. Not G# which is the same as Ab. G would be the fourth of D7 which IMO wouldn't be a good choice.

One advantage of applying the other approaches is the application of the 1-5 on the second half the bar (D-A) making a chromatic movement to Abmin7.

 

[slybass3000]

. If you froze that moment it might sound bad.......

Guess what ?

It does sound bad if not prepared IMO. Again it is a matter of opinion and teaching the right stuff to people who don't have the knowledge. Sorry but to me this is not a good advice you give them in any style of basslines not just walking.

Yes Ron Carter is the master at simplifying the harmony but always in the right context. If someone really hears the major third on a minor chord instead of the minor third, fine. They are at another level of musicianship because they are aware of what is being played on top by the soloist AND the comping.

 

[Lambic]

To me yes. I guess the fourth beat you mention is G going to Ab. Not G# which is the same as Ab. G would be the fourth of D7 which IMO wouldn't be a good choice.

One advantage of applying the other approaches is the application of the 1-5 on the second half the bar (D-A) making a chromatic movement to Abmin7.

Oops Of course, G going to Ab. But I was concentrating on that C#
What I actually play is A-C#-D-A - - Ab-C-Db-Db, that last one being one octave up. I still have to check it with the CD, to actually HEAR if it sounds acceptable. To me, that is...

 

[edfriedland]

Guess what ?

It does sound bad if not prepared IMO. Again it is a matter of opinion and teaching the right stuff to people who don't have the knowledge. Sorry but to me this is not a good advice you give them in any style of basslines not just walking.

Yes Ron Carter is the master at simplifying the harmony but always in the right context. If someone really hears the major third on a minor chord instead of the minor third, fine. They are at another level of musicianship because they are aware of what is being played on top by the soloist AND the comping.

So, it's okay for Ron Carter, but not for students?

A chromatic approach will override the chord quality - the line is in motion, and the note will not be perceived as wrong unless you suddenly froze everything and listened to it out of context.

But, don't take my word for it, try it yourself. If you don't like the way it sounds (in tempo, in the context of a tune) then simply don't use it. I'm not going to get into a contest about it. When you get to the advanced level of understanding this stuff, you realize that ANY note can work, it's all about the context.

 

[bassfuser]

I got up to chromatic and dominant approach and got lost. It's so easy when the examples are written out, "I'M WALKING! I'M WALKING!". But when you take those notes away it all falls apart and I realize where I'm lacking.

Going back and re-reading through the root, 5th, 8th sections and applying it to the songs in the back is helping big time.

I think it doesn't hurt to go ahead in the lesson material a little bit and then come back. Re-learn the basics again with the future material in mind. It'll give you new things to think about when working on the basics, so you can see how the material builds on the foundations.

+1. I'm reviewing Root/8th and going through the standards again.

 

[bassfuser]

Not that I'm an expert, but I've found that approaching a chord a half step below on beat 4 sounds OK to me even if the previous chord is a minor chord. Jamerson did a lot of that with open notes going for instance from an Fmi7 to a Bb7. It's almost like a skip note or passing tone.

I have found that using a double chromatic from a Ami7b5 down to a D7 sounds really bad because of the natural 5th required. Playing the natural E on the 3rd beat of the Ami7b5 chord sounds real bad. At the same time, walking up using double chromatic to the D7 sounds OK. The C# doesn't hurt my ears, I guess because it's on beat 4.

 

[slybass3000]

So, it's okay for Ron Carter, but not for students?

A chromatic approach will override the chord quality - the line is in motion, and the note will not be perceived as wrong unless you suddenly froze everything and listened to it out of context.

But, don't take my word for it, try it yourself. If you don't like the way it sounds (in tempo, in the context of a tune) then simply don't use it. I'm not going to get into a contest about it. When you get to the advanced level of understanding this stuff, you realize that ANY note can work, it's all about the context.

Ed,
i really don't want to start a big debate on this. You have a book to promote and I understand that. I'm writing my own books right on the subject. It comes from 30 years as a teacher at university and gigging at the very top level. I just don't subscribe to this kind of advice without warnings or alternate solutions.

BTW,I hope you are aware of how weird it sounds when you mention that playing that is ok for students at the beginner level AND Ron Carter(???).

Sorry, I can't not mention it, professional consciousness.

 

[Jim Campbell]

Guess what? You CAN use lower chromatic approach when going from a minor chord. Yeah, I know the chord structure calls for F natural on Dm7, but the chromatic approach to G7 (F#) will override the chord tone. It's all about moving ahead, the approach note takes you to the next chord, so it's relationship to the first chord is secondary. If you froze that moment it might sound bad, but... we don't, so go ahead and use the Major 3rd, it creates a very strong pull to the target note.

thanx ed.....i never knew for sure if it was ok to do that,even tho' i did it,and it sounded good.....i suppose there are a lot of people out there trying to figure out this music thing on their own who are not sure just how rigid or flexible the "rules" are...

 

[slybass3000]

Not that I'm an expert, but I've found that approaching a chord a half step below on beat 4 sounds OK to me even if the previous chord is a minor chord. Jamerson did a lot of that with open notes going for instance from an Fmi7 to a Bb7. It's almost like a skip note or passing tone.

I have found that using a double chromatic from a Ami7b5 down to a D7 sounds really bad because of the natural 5th required. Playing the natural E on the 3rd beat of the Ami7b5 chord sounds real bad. At the same time, walking up using double chromatic to the D7 sounds OK. The C# doesn't hurt my ears, I guess because it's on beat 4.

It is true that Jamerson used it but it was most of the time a short rhythm and was looking for some rhythmin movement . Don't forget that at the time the bass sound very muffled making it difficult to hear the actual pitch and yes it is easier to play an open string then to play the ab with your 4th finger as an example.

 

[Billnc]

The chromatic tone as described by Ed is something I was taught by a few teachers, and is also mentioned in the Aebersold books on building a basic walikng line. I can't for the life of me see how this is bad advice.

 

[slybass3000]

It is funny because I just listenned to Ed's examples on the standards at the end and NOT ONCE he plays the major third on a minor chord that last 2 beats . Why? Because he knows it doesn't support the harmony the proper way which is the role of the bass.

 

[Billnc]

It is funny because I just listenned to Ed's examples on the standards at the end and NOT ONCE he plays the major third on a minor chord that last 2 beats . Why? Because he knows it doesn't support the harmony the proper way which is the role of the bass.

The device explained in the book is only on the last beat of the chord, leading to the next chords root.


iPhone

 

[slybass3000]

The device explained in the book is only on the last beat of the chord, leading to the next chords root.


iPhone

False.

He explains clearly on #11 last bar the use of the major third in the last bar for an example. Actually this whole exercice is terrible in practical ways.

 

[edfriedland]

Ed,
i really don't want to start a big debate on this. You have a book to promote and I understand that. I'm writing my own books right on the subject. It comes from 30 years as a teacher at university and gigging at the very top level. I just don't subscribe to this kind of advice without warnings or alternate solutions.

BTW,I hope you are aware of how weird it sounds when you mention that playing that is ok for students at the beginner level AND Ron Carter(???).

Sorry, I can't not mention it, professional consciousness.

I am not here to promote my book. The forum people chose it on their own, as have many thousands of people over the past 17 years. They've bought it already, I have no need to sell it to them again.

Try this: One measure of Dm7 moving to G7... play D-G#-A-F# to G. Now play D-G#-A-F to G. Personally, I think the first way sounds smoother as a line, and the fact that the "offending note" happens on beat 4 renders it essentially harmless to the chord quality which immediately passes to the G7. If the F# bugs you - don't use it.

I'm glad you feel well qualified to teach and you are free to criticize whatever you want about my methods. I am not so insecure about my work that I can't take some questioning.

However, I will say this once more and leave it at that: Using a chromatic approach from a minor chord that is the major 3rd is perfectly acceptable for anyone - Ron Carter, a beginner, my aunt Gertrude... anyone. If it sounds good for Ron Carter, it will sound good for my aunt as well, though I think she swings a little harder.

You can't subscribe to this advice without warnings or alternate solutions... what type of warning exactly? No one has lost a gig, been humiliated in public or suffered bodily harm as a result of using this musical technique.

Alternate solutions? The entire book is full of them. So it seems to me you are simply pushing a point for the sake of something else. Ultimately, one note here or there does not make or break a walking bass line, but regardless, I still think it sounds better.

If you assume that I tell people this out of a lack of professional consciousness, you are being more than a bit presumptuous.


Now, can we move on from this time consuming nit-picking?