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Building Walking Basslines Lesson 1
- Thread starter Pbassred
- Start date
I am not here to promote my book. The forum people chose it on their own, as have many thousands of people over the past 17 years. They've bought it already, I have no need to sell it to them again.
Try this: One measure of Dm7 moving to G7... play D-G#-A-F# to G. Now play D-G#-A-F to G. Personally, I think the first way sounds smoother as a line, and the fact that the "offending note" happens on beat 4 renders it essentially harmless to the chord quality which immediately passes to the G7. If the F# bugs you - don't use it.
I'm glad you feel well qualified to teach and you are free to criticize whatever you want about my methods. I am not so insecure about my work that I can't take some questioning.
However, I will say this once more and leave it at that: Using a chromatic approach from a minor chord that is the major 3rd is perfectly acceptable for anyone - Ron Carter, a beginner, my aunt Gertrude... anyone. If it sounds good for Ron Carter, it will sound good for my aunt as well, though I think she swings a little harder.
You can't subscribe to this advice without warnings or alternate solutions... what type of warning exactly? No one has lost a gig, been humiliated in public or suffered bodily harm as a result of using this musical technique.
Alternate solutions? The entire book is full of them. So it seems to me you are simply pushing a point for the sake of something else. Ultimately, one note here or there does not make or break a walking bass line, but regardless, I still think it sounds better.
If you assume that I tell people this out of a lack of professional consciousness, you are being more than a bit presumptuous.
Now, can we move on from this time consuming nit-picking?
1) In your example here about the chromatic approach is fine because there is a certain melodic concept to it. Plus the chord last one bar which is fine because I have no problem with a major third on a fourth beat after one bar of minor chord especially if it was prepared.
2) About the Ron Carter issue yes there is a big difference because if he plays a major third in a 2 beats minor chord he is probably aware that the soloist and the comp player are playing a dominant chord instead a minor after a while in the solos. Students are not aware of these evolving aspects in a jazz piece.
3) Loosing a gig for playing the wrong notes? The world is full of that !!! Bassists are the ones who should ALWAYS play the right notes for obvious reasons.
4) there is nothing arrogant about my saying. It is my point of view on a very fragile and important aspect of bass teaching and to me it is not a nit-picking point on the contrary.
That said, I'm sure we both know the importance of playing the right notes because you do play them in your book at the end ;-)
I don't like you SlyBass3000.
Up till now, I thought your added advice in this thread was helpful. But now you have wasted my time since I had to read through your sensless dissagreements with Mr. Friedland. And now Im wasting other reader's time by writing about you.
You are becoming "in the way". Ed Friedland is the Man. You are nobody. I am greatful to get to study this book with Ed in the threads. Don't aggrivate him or it will be like the Jff Berlin incident all over again here in TB and he will be gone.
So just enjoy the thread or take all your vast knowledge and spend your time finishing your own book. Thanks.
Up till now, I thought your added advice in this thread was helpful. But now you have wasted my time since I had to read through your sensless dissagreements with Mr. Friedland. And now Im wasting other reader's time by writing about you.
You are becoming "in the way". Ed Friedland is the Man. You are nobody. I am greatful to get to study this book with Ed in the threads. Don't aggrivate him or it will be like the Jff Berlin incident all over again here in TB and he will be gone.
So just enjoy the thread or take all your vast knowledge and spend your time finishing your own book. Thanks.
I don't like you SlyBass3000.
Up till now, I thought your added advice in this thread was helpful. But now you have wasted my time since I had to read through your sensless dissagreements with Mr. Friedland. And now Im wasting other reader's time by writing about you.
You are becoming "in the way". Ed Friedland is the Man. You are nobody. I am greatful to get to study this book with Ed in the threads. Don't aggrivate him or it will be like the Jff Berlin incident all over again here in TB and he will be gone.
So just enjoy the thread or take all your vast knowledge and spend your time finishing your own book. Thanks.
Fine by me monroe.
I was giving advice on playing the right notes and if you think it is ok for you to play a major third on a minor chord go for it. There will be less competition for my gigs LOL
Monroe55,
Take the time to re-read what I wrote in this thread and tell me where I'm so off to the point where you dislike me so much please.
Teaching is a very difficult task especially when you do it at a high level. Telling bass players to be aware about playing the right notes and wrong notes like major thirds on minor chords is not a bad advice. Ask any professional bass players around you and they'll tell you that it is a very important aspect that needs to be used carefully.
BTW, all the Artists, Producers and Bandleaders I'm working with are far from thinking I'm a nobody like you say. You don't even know me and what I do for a healthy living !
Take the time to re-read what I wrote in this thread and tell me where I'm so off to the point where you dislike me so much please.
Teaching is a very difficult task especially when you do it at a high level. Telling bass players to be aware about playing the right notes and wrong notes like major thirds on minor chords is not a bad advice. Ask any professional bass players around you and they'll tell you that it is a very important aspect that needs to be used carefully.
BTW, all the Artists, Producers and Bandleaders I'm working with are far from thinking I'm a nobody like you say. You don't even know me and what I do for a healthy living !
Ok. I'm sorry. Judging by your last post, you're probably not a nobody. I take it back and I do still have respect for a majority of your posts. I guess I just got frustrated with the disagreement you kept going on about with Ed. But c'mon dude! Ed's a good enough teacher. Someone like you doesnt have to disagree so much over one little point(M3rd over minor) with him in an attempt to help educate and protect nobodys like us here on this thread. Ed knows what he's doing. We'll all be fine with this little nuance no matter who we agree with on this M3rd note over the 4th beat of a minor chord thing.
I almost regret having asked about this minor-major thing. 
Anyway, I just tried with the CD, and in that particular case (fifth and sixth bar of the first standard), it doesn't really clash with the piano's chords, because those aren't on the beat. I even think it adds a bit of spice. But that's just me, and I still have to learn quite a lot of things.
Anyway, I just tried with the CD, and in that particular case (fifth and sixth bar of the first standard), it doesn't really clash with the piano's chords, because those aren't on the beat. I even think it adds a bit of spice. But that's just me, and I still have to learn quite a lot of things.
Monroe,
I don't disagree with a passing M3 on a 4th beat of a minor chord which is the typical bassline on a ii-v but i do disagree to say it is ok on a 2 beats minor chord. This is where Ed and I disagree and it is ok as long as bass players know what they are doing. To my ears it doesn't sound good unless the tempo is fast. But hey, that is just me !
I almost regret having asked about this minor-major thing.
Anyway, I just tried with the CD, and in that particular case (fifth and sixth bar of the first standard), it doesn't really clash with the piano's chords, because those aren't on the beat. I even think it adds a bit of spice. But that's just me, and I still have to learn quite a lot of things.
Lambic don't feel sorry about that because it is a very important point. And i make a point about respecting the color and the nature of chords. But that is just me ;-)
Monroe,
I don't disagree with a passing M3 on a 4th beat of a minor chord which is the typical bassline on a ii-v but i do disagree to say it is ok on a 2 beats minor chord. This is where Ed and I disagree and it is ok as long as bass players know what they are doing. To my ears it doesn't sound good unless the tempo is fast. But hey, that is just me !
Oops. I know you were refering to a 2 beat minor chord. I got confused when typing and wrote the wrong thing ( 4th beat of minor chord). Im still getting the hang of all this. I do understand your disagreement with Ed though.
I'll shut up now and just continue learning here. Sorry everyone. Lets continue Walking!
No, it is still the last beat of the G minor chord leading to C, how is that false? I got Ed's Book years ago, the same time I got transcriptions to Bob Cranshaw's lines and Ron Carter's lines, both players use the device extensively. My teachers have told me the same thing, even if it is a two beat minor to dominant.
Of course using the b3 is never going to be wrong.
Well, I feel like I've arrived because now we're getting into "Jeff Berlin" territory. Okay, so everyone relax, chill, and remember that this is just a bunch of notes we're talking about.
Monroe, apologize to Slybass, Slybass... apologize to everyone...kidding, I'm kidding!
I refuse to take part in the typical TB drama, so we can just forget about going there.
I have said all I need to say about this chromatic approach thing, I have not listened to what I played on those tracks in 17 years, so if Slybass says I didn't play any chromatic approaches on minor chords lasting only 2 beats, I'm forced to take him at his word - because I ain't gonna go back and listen to it now!
However, I hope I've learned a thing or two in that time period - I must have because I certainly use chromatic approach that way now!
Monroe, apologize to Slybass, Slybass... apologize to everyone...kidding, I'm kidding!
I refuse to take part in the typical TB drama, so we can just forget about going there.
I have said all I need to say about this chromatic approach thing, I have not listened to what I played on those tracks in 17 years, so if Slybass says I didn't play any chromatic approaches on minor chords lasting only 2 beats, I'm forced to take him at his word - because I ain't gonna go back and listen to it now!
However, I hope I've learned a thing or two in that time period - I must have because I certainly use chromatic approach that way now!
I've just thought of something: on the CD the bass lines are probably played the way somebody would do after completing the whole book, whereas I (and fellow students here) am playing them with the knowledge of a certain chapter. I enjoyed playing them with the knowledge I had about roots, fifths and octaves, but wouldn't play them that way anymore, because I moved on to chromatic approach. So now I'm playing them with the knowledge I have about chromatic approach, which probably isn't complete. Next time I'll go through them with more knowledge, and play them differently again.
Just trying to say that the way I'm playing now (with that minor-major thing for example) isn't necessarily the way I'll be playing them later on. But, being a teacher myself (percussion), I understand the teacher's anxiety for a student who might develop a bad habit, knowing the amount of discipline and perseverance that's needed to get rid of a bad habit. In other words: I feel like I should study this as closely possible to what I think Ed's telling me in the book, and at the same time be aware of the fact that I may have misinterpreted things, and have to change things.
I'm very jealous of people who are sure of knowing it all: must be a wonderful feeling. But I'm still learning. Probably will be forever.
Just trying to say that the way I'm playing now (with that minor-major thing for example) isn't necessarily the way I'll be playing them later on. But, being a teacher myself (percussion), I understand the teacher's anxiety for a student who might develop a bad habit, knowing the amount of discipline and perseverance that's needed to get rid of a bad habit. In other words: I feel like I should study this as closely possible to what I think Ed's telling me in the book, and at the same time be aware of the fact that I may have misinterpreted things, and have to change things.
I'm very jealous of people who are sure of knowing it all: must be a wonderful feeling. But I'm still learning. Probably will be forever.
I thought you mentioned a chord that last a whole bar from what I red. Still I'm not a fan of M3 on minor chord when it last 2 beats unless it is a fast tempo or played on the upbeat. I can assure you that if you play the M3 on minor chord in some context like a ballad or with a full orchestra, you'll have the director throwing his stick at you !
Naturally your playing will change and improve as you move forward. Your lines will make more sense, become more interesting, and they will start to swing. The swing feel won't truly develop until you have reached a certain level of comfort with all of this. Any degree of tentativeness will get in the way of the feel, but that's okay for right now. You can't rush this, you get it when you get it.
>>I'm very jealous of people who are sure of knowing it all: must be a wonderful feeling.<<
Don't be. People that are sure they know it all are deluding themselves. It only feels wonderful because reality doesn't enter their world. I would be the last person to claim that, it's a ridiculous concept.
>>I'm very jealous of people who are sure of knowing it all: must be a wonderful feeling.<<
Don't be. People that are sure they know it all are deluding themselves. It only feels wonderful because reality doesn't enter their world. I would be the last person to claim that, it's a ridiculous concept.
I thought you mentioned a chord that last a whole bar from what I red. Still I'm not a fan of M3 on minor chord when it last 2 beats unless it is a fast tempo or played on the upbeat. I can assure you that if you play the M3 on minor chord in some context like a ballad or with a full orchestra, you'll have the director throwing his stick at you !
Okay, I see your point. Tempo does play a role in this. You are correct, at a ballad tempo it would be a bad choice.
Thank you Ed. There is just so much stuff to learn from your book that it is a good thing that people know that all that stuff about harmony and basslines is transferable in any style as well and most of it ; every note in the bass has a big impact on harmony on top ;-)
I thought you mentioned a chord that last a whole bar from what I red. Still I'm not a fan of M3 on minor chord when it last 2 beats unless it is a fast tempo or played on the upbeat. I can assure you that if you play the M3 on minor chord in some context like a ballad or with a full orchestra, you'll have the director throwing his stick at you !
Oh yeah, doing it on Stormy Monday would get me jumped on! But it works quite often otherwise. I personally don't always like the chromatic note from above approach, usually use a scale tone
Just getting caught up on this thread after a week away. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who thought the chromatic approach can be tricky. Now I don't have to kick myself so hard. (I had the same frustrating stumbles with chromatics in the Hal Leonard Bass Method book)
OTOH, the dominant approach just seemed to flow right from the beginning. Go figure!
Lots of good advice after sifting through some of the static.
Anyway, looks like I just need to spend more time in the woodshed.
OTOH, the dominant approach just seemed to flow right from the beginning. Go figure!
Lots of good advice after sifting through some of the static.
Anyway, looks like I just need to spend more time in the woodshed.
Okay, beginners! I know some of you reading this thread are completely new to walkin'...
Let me hear about some of your progress with the book, such as what has worked, and some of what has not worked, and perhaps-why? If you could share some details...
Still taking very small steps, here.
Let me hear about some of your progress with the book, such as what has worked, and some of what has not worked, and perhaps-why? If you could share some details...
Still taking very small steps, here.
