i don't care about the builder, the buyer, or the cab. i do care that the consumer was refused a refund. if you small business owners want to play the game, play by the rules!:scowl:
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Buyers beware!!!!
- Thread starter g4string
- Start date
Wow dude sorry but you're WAY in the wrong on this one. reading thru that email chain YOU posted, all I see is the seller bending over backwards for you and you be uncooperative and combative for no reason. 
I don't believe he was implying anything. You were complicit in cheating Paypal out of it's rightfully due fees when you lied about the type of transaction you were involved in.
You knew you were buying merchandise from a vendor, not sending money to a family member or sending a gift to a friend. You said right up-front that you knew you were doing it to help the vendor avoid fees.
The vendor was wrong to ask you to do it. You were wrong to have done it.
This is a pretty broadly known no-no. It's also something that could and probably should have caused you pause as you were filling out the transaction information.
IMO, it's a fine community service to make this Paypal gift transaction caveat even more broadly known, but the transaction type isn't really the basis of your issue. You obviously wouldn't have cared a lick about it if you had wanted/accepted an exchange as resolution to the situation which was your personal timing needs and how you had handled the contingencies surrounding your purchase. You miscalculated and believed there was only one solution.
bongomania
Commercial User
Wow dude sorry but you're WAY in the wrong on this one. reading thru that email chain YOU posted, all I see is the seller bending over backwards for you and you be uncooperative and combative for no reason.
That's how I see it too.
Plus, insisting on an instant refund is a common tactic of thieves and scammers on Ebay and around the web, so any seller is right to be wary and reluctant about handing out refunds on demand.
Ok the part that made me support the OP was when he offered to foot the shipping costs just to get his money back so that the vendor could break even with both cabs back in their possession...in that situation I'd say the vendor is being ridiculous. The lack of a return policy and the jerry-rigged packaging were both things that would make me think twice about having money in ANY of that vendor's products. The Paypal request was a red flag for me too, seemed awful fishy lol
Sorry to hear about the whole situation though, hope you get your money back and get a solid cab!
Sorry to hear about the whole situation though, hope you get your money back and get a solid cab!
I know who this builder is by the fact that he is formerly a lawyer and lives in CA. I have bought several cabs from him as one might see in my profile. Every experience was good. He never used to accept paypal and wanted money order or wire transfer onlyso this whole paypal issue of him wanting a non-fee method is interesting.
At any rate, I have to say that I think the builder has gone out of his way to make up for the damaged cab, which wasn't even his fault. I also think its a pretty big leap to assume that the builder was out to dupe people by accepting a payment where no refund could be given. The guy's customer service is excellent and I highly doubt he would do that. I think he was just trying to avoid the fees... those kind of things add up quickly for a small business owner.
Besides all that why wouldn't the buyer just take the $1100 cab? That makes no sense to me. If he was displeased with the tone he could of always sold it and made a few hundred dollar profit. Also, if he had a gig in two days, and needed a cab he could of rented one for a nominal fee. It wasnt a "life or death" situation that it was made out to be.
At any rate, I have to say that I think the builder has gone out of his way to make up for the damaged cab, which wasn't even his fault. I also think its a pretty big leap to assume that the builder was out to dupe people by accepting a payment where no refund could be given. The guy's customer service is excellent and I highly doubt he would do that. I think he was just trying to avoid the fees... those kind of things add up quickly for a small business owner.
Besides all that why wouldn't the buyer just take the $1100 cab? That makes no sense to me. If he was displeased with the tone he could of always sold it and made a few hundred dollar profit. Also, if he had a gig in two days, and needed a cab he could of rented one for a nominal fee. It wasnt a "life or death" situation that it was made out to be.
Gotta agree with the OP (like all the other Texans).
I think most of you either didn't read the full transaction or know who he is talking about and just like him.
For instance, the "gift" payment was wrong for either of them, yet you defend the seller who suggested it and say you trust him? Obviously even if in all other walks of life he's a saint he still committed an unethical act and cheated paypal out of money, which even if it is bad on both there parts really affects the business that runs on paypal most.
Second, the issue isn't that the OP is being picky (he isn't). The issue is the Manufacturer offered him a unsolicited discount (wasn't listed or asked for by the OP). Like any logical customer interested in a product he accepted the offer, and even after phone calls and apparently several emails over a course of several days the Manufacturer never ONCE mentioned anything whatsoever about returns/refunds etc, which while maybe not normally an issue, does become a major issue when in fact the potential for any refund was voided by the discount the Manufacturer offered. While this would be the OP's fault if the builder told him this or conducted regular business through his website and displayed the details on the bottom of the page or a dedicated visible link like most reputable business the builder didn't and steers business away from the website further distancing customers like the OP from any chance of seeing the refund details.
After all that I can only see the unsolicited replacement cab as hush money to prevent the OP from voicing his dissatisfaction/making claims. The only problem is the OP clearly stated he needed a refund and had a gig (he had mentioned from first contact as a priority) and the damaged cab was preventing him from honoring his own commitments to the level he deemed acceptable. So don't tell him use a DI or borrow etc. when you have no clue what the OP was doing.
If you can't wrap your head around it, think of it as the week of your wedding the bakery delivers a cake and you receive it with a slice missing. You call him telling him not only is it physically "broken", but you paid for a cake to feed (entertain) 200 people and now can only feed 195. Now you need a refund to find another cake and in the meantime the chef says no! I have a better idea I'll send you a cake capable of feeding 400 people next week. Well a lot of good that does anyone.
It doesn't matter if that first cake/cab was the most delicious thing on the planet, the fact is the OP needed a cab and through word of mouth chose this builder which through an underhanded deal prevented the OP from performing the services he promised to someone else. It doesn't matter what the builder promised the fact is the OP needed his money back and the builder made it so he couldn't.
Overall I think the builder needs to if anything give the website a update and state clearly all rules and regulations in addition to giving paypal it's fair share if he truly is a reputable business who does well. I'd like to think beyond the unethical issues, the builder just got careless in packaging and created a perfect storm when his product came damaged to the wrong guy who exposed the fact his dealings were less than fair. Maybe normally the builder has a fine customer relationship and what he does works, but obviously what he does wasn't all pure, so I don't see why he made a stink about it to the OP when he's risking a lot allowing the OP to bring up his business practices to Paypal and his bank. Just because he's a lawyer and he can make a good bass cab does not make this guy a good businessman. Too many "boutique" builders suffer can't do good business and they always suffer for it.
Good luck with the refund
I think most of you either didn't read the full transaction or know who he is talking about and just like him.
For instance, the "gift" payment was wrong for either of them, yet you defend the seller who suggested it and say you trust him? Obviously even if in all other walks of life he's a saint he still committed an unethical act and cheated paypal out of money, which even if it is bad on both there parts really affects the business that runs on paypal most.
Second, the issue isn't that the OP is being picky (he isn't). The issue is the Manufacturer offered him a unsolicited discount (wasn't listed or asked for by the OP). Like any logical customer interested in a product he accepted the offer, and even after phone calls and apparently several emails over a course of several days the Manufacturer never ONCE mentioned anything whatsoever about returns/refunds etc, which while maybe not normally an issue, does become a major issue when in fact the potential for any refund was voided by the discount the Manufacturer offered. While this would be the OP's fault if the builder told him this or conducted regular business through his website and displayed the details on the bottom of the page or a dedicated visible link like most reputable business the builder didn't and steers business away from the website further distancing customers like the OP from any chance of seeing the refund details.
After all that I can only see the unsolicited replacement cab as hush money to prevent the OP from voicing his dissatisfaction/making claims. The only problem is the OP clearly stated he needed a refund and had a gig (he had mentioned from first contact as a priority) and the damaged cab was preventing him from honoring his own commitments to the level he deemed acceptable. So don't tell him use a DI or borrow etc. when you have no clue what the OP was doing.
If you can't wrap your head around it, think of it as the week of your wedding the bakery delivers a cake and you receive it with a slice missing. You call him telling him not only is it physically "broken", but you paid for a cake to feed (entertain) 200 people and now can only feed 195. Now you need a refund to find another cake and in the meantime the chef says no! I have a better idea I'll send you a cake capable of feeding 400 people next week. Well a lot of good that does anyone.
It doesn't matter if that first cake/cab was the most delicious thing on the planet, the fact is the OP needed a cab and through word of mouth chose this builder which through an underhanded deal prevented the OP from performing the services he promised to someone else. It doesn't matter what the builder promised the fact is the OP needed his money back and the builder made it so he couldn't.
Overall I think the builder needs to if anything give the website a update and state clearly all rules and regulations in addition to giving paypal it's fair share if he truly is a reputable business who does well. I'd like to think beyond the unethical issues, the builder just got careless in packaging and created a perfect storm when his product came damaged to the wrong guy who exposed the fact his dealings were less than fair. Maybe normally the builder has a fine customer relationship and what he does works, but obviously what he does wasn't all pure, so I don't see why he made a stink about it to the OP when he's risking a lot allowing the OP to bring up his business practices to Paypal and his bank. Just because he's a lawyer and he can make a good bass cab does not make this guy a good businessman. Too many "boutique" builders suffer can't do good business and they always suffer for it.
Good luck with the refund
I vote this thread be closed before more damage is done to a good companies reputation. The OP seems to be the only one who's had a problem.
Just because only one person had a problem doesn't mean their wasn't a problem.
he never mentioned the companies name so damage wasn't done unless people actively asked him privately.
All the OP asked is doing is warning people over all that doing any form of business using a "gift" payment style can lead to a number of issues if the company isn't playing fully by the book, and the request for "gift" payment is a red flag.
Heaven forbid somebody's reputation gets tarnished. This isn't a smear campaign, just a friendly heads up on what not to do. By no means is this Dr. Bass material....but I'm sure the first guy who posted something negative about Dr Bass wasnt well received.
Well said! My point to the T!!
The OP should have been given a refund due to the damaged cabinet if he chose. It doesn't matter how good of a businessman the cabinet maker is or not. The customer asked for a legitimate refund and was not given one. Period.
Not to split hairs but making this big a stink over a customer service issue and attacking the customer is what makes a judgement on how well someone does business. Also not picking on you but..
I do respect these boutique builders and would love to one day do something similar, but I am a business major first and seeing how some dealers work and their loyal customers act, is frankly laughable.
I can see if a guy was making cabs for friends and real low key you'd take the stances you do. The issue is though this builder obviously is doing this as a business to make a profit. As a business all the excuses you've made for this builder just aren't acceptable. The fact is this builder has skirted a lot of ethical boundaries and in some states as people have mentioned actual laws. The fact is if you're prepared to take large amount of money from people, you need to be prepared to be able to hand it back in full, and if your customer is willing to help you break even you take that offer. If the dealer is in the red and needs to use the OP's money to fund the next build then he's doing it wrong and these issues will surface more and more until he's out of business.
I went to the website, and the first thing I noticed -- NO ORDER FORM! No Cart, no PayPal option! Helloooooo?????
You should have never ordered using the family/gift/owed feature. You knew that was against PayPal policy and you broke their rules. Both parties are at fault and could suffer consequences by PayPal.
It seems to me you got really upset when the cab didn't arrive perfect out of the box, and you became angry. Your emails started out civilly enough, but eventually, as you became more out of control, you became offensive. Ultimately, this was two male egos bashing each others' horns, showing who was more dominant.
You should realize that the minute you start using insulting words like deceptive, ripping off, etc, you HAVE LOST your sympathy with the vendor or other party. Do you think he wanted to help you after you offended him? Here's a simple trick that will help you in the future. Write something down out of anger, then leave it. Go take a walk, breathe in some fresh air. Then go back, re read what you wrote, and TONE DOWN THE LANGUAGE. Take another break. Then again TONE DOWN THE LANGUAGE. You want to lure the vendor to your side, not offend him!
You also should have taken the better cabinet, but your foolish pride got in the way. Typical male machismo behavior, gotta be right, gotta win.
Good luck hope you learned a lesson.
You should have never ordered using the family/gift/owed feature. You knew that was against PayPal policy and you broke their rules. Both parties are at fault and could suffer consequences by PayPal.
It seems to me you got really upset when the cab didn't arrive perfect out of the box, and you became angry. Your emails started out civilly enough, but eventually, as you became more out of control, you became offensive. Ultimately, this was two male egos bashing each others' horns, showing who was more dominant.
You should realize that the minute you start using insulting words like deceptive, ripping off, etc, you HAVE LOST your sympathy with the vendor or other party. Do you think he wanted to help you after you offended him? Here's a simple trick that will help you in the future. Write something down out of anger, then leave it. Go take a walk, breathe in some fresh air. Then go back, re read what you wrote, and TONE DOWN THE LANGUAGE. Take another break. Then again TONE DOWN THE LANGUAGE. You want to lure the vendor to your side, not offend him!
You also should have taken the better cabinet, but your foolish pride got in the way. Typical male machismo behavior, gotta be right, gotta win.
Good luck hope you learned a lesson.
Seems a good number of people seemed concerned about the builders bottom line....what about the customers bottom line. Seems as though a good number of people here have a wealth of money to toss around. Don't know about you, but I don't have an extra $700 to piss away. Maybe I'm the only poor bass player here.
I'm with you on this. He shipped a defective product, you have the photos to prove it, and it should be your choice between a refund and a replacement. The delaminations are not "little nicks," and a new cab shouldn't have any nicks in it anyway.
Not necessarily. I shipped a 410 cab via Fedex to another TBer in Nashville. Somewhere in transit, the box apparently was dropped on its side from maybe dock height. There was slight damage on one corner of the box, but the impact was so great, it actually caused two of the speaker magnets to separate from the baskets. It offset the voice coils enough that the speakers couldn't operate.
They way I handled it was to have the buyer ship the cab back to me at my expense, and I filed the claim with Fedex. I reimbursed the full price of the cab plus the original shipping he paid. All the buyer was out was the time to send the cab back. It took about a month, but Fedex made me whole for all but one direction of shipping. I was happy with the way Fedex handled the claim.
I'm not a commercial dealer, but even I know the damage negative feedback can have here at TB. I did what I consider to be the right thing to do - make the buyer whole.
I really really am on your side. I'm a consumer, and the companies that offer outstanding customer support unfortunately are corporate national companies.
I have to budget every cent I put out due to being married to a tightwad, lol. and buying a 700 dollar cabinet to me seems like a sizable investment.
Sadly, you were taken in by the instant rebate, and you didn't see the danger signs when there was no order form on the website, and that the vendor asked for a gift payment.
Since money is so valuable to you, as with all of us, you should have been very careful on your purchase. You could have offered to pay the 3 percent fee for getting the cabinet and listed it as a purchase. Then you could have held your tongue when the unit arrived defective.
But if you were worried about the bottom line, you would have realized that getting the 1,100 dollar cab would be the best opportunity you had for getting the best deal. But, somehow you cThouldn't step away emotionally long enough to look a gift horse in the mouth.
If I were you I would write back and say, sorry man, I lost my temper. I will gladly accept your upgraded cabinet, shipped on your dime.
Then, if you dont like it, sell it for a profit! That's how you're looking after your bottom line.
I'm not on the builder's side, if you are money challenged. I'm on the side of a happy ending. Better take the upgraded cab and you will be far ahead in the long run. And you will have been paid for learning a valuable lesson.
Good luck.
p.s. don't be so defensive to people who are trying to teach you something. Don't you think we've all been ripped off at least once in our life?
It's not as though he plastered the guy's name and company all over the post by any means at all. By this logic we should shut down all people who are complaining about Fender, Gibson, Ampeg, GK, Ibanez, Fodera, Warwick, Mesa Boogie, etc....it's a free country and he's relaying his experience with actual evidence (not he said, she said bullcrap) from the emails he posted. Last I checked we were ALL entitled to our opinions and fully free to voice them.
If it were MY $700 and I was about to spend it on one cabinet, I would CERTAINLY appreciate something besides a stepford wife review. The OP has more than enough evidence to give someone with reason some pause in this situation. If it was a situation where I needed a cab in a pinch or wanted my money back, I'd think twice before doing business with this cab builder...I certainly wouldn't buy any "discount" cabs from the builder. Either way, I appreciate an honest review...I always look for the "bad ones" whenever I sift through reviews on a product. Just like in a debate or in research, you need to hear from both sides to make an informed decision.
