Buzz Feiten Tuning System - I don't understand.

[alaskaleftybass]

To De-Buzz an instrument, you need to move the new nut back (toward the headstock) by 0.030". You can use a 0.030" thick shim between the end of the fingerboard and the nut, or you can seat the nut against the fingerboard and trim the front face back on an angle or a step. As long as the witness points (the front edges of the slots) end up 0.030" past the end of the fingerboard, it will be back to normal. Don't move the bridge or anything else, just reset the intonation as normal.

One note: If that MTD came from the factory with the Buzz system installed, then you may want to check the installation carefully. I believe some factory installations used a special nut which slightly overhangs the end of the fingerboard. That allowed them to use the same fingerboard and slotting for Buzz and Non-Buzz instruments, and easily be able to switch them. If it looks like the nut is overhanging the fingerboard by 0.030", then you can pop it off of there and put a standard nut in its place.

Thanks @Bruce Johnson ! I might send for the bass and give it a careful inspection. It would be awesome if the string nut popped out and allowed a standard replacement! Thank you!

I believe the MTD Kingston Artist model uses a zero fret which pretty much takes the nut out of contention.

Riis

Thanks @Zooberwerx ! Everything leads me to believe this might be doable. I have four other lefty basses strung righty and they intonate perfectly.

Fussing about exact intonation intonation is an exercise in futility. For instance, did you know that E in the key of C is not the same pitch as E in the key of F? And that G# and Ab are different pitches depending on the key? it's a bit tricky but to understand it you need to get a grasp on the structure of our 12-tone scale and the physics of the harmonic series. Fascinating study, and if you are OCD it may drive you away from music entirely.

Guys, I really appreciate the information. Anyone else want to chime in, please do! This is a good learning experience for me, and I just may get that bass!

 

[Bruce Johnson]

I believe the MTD Kingston Artist model uses a zero fret which pretty much takes the nut out of contention.

Riis

Well, you can't really have a Buzz Feiten tuning system with a zero fret. If a standard MTD Kingston Artist uses a zero fret, then to convert it to the Buzz system, you'd have to pull the zero fret, cut off the fingerboard 0.030" forward of the "0" line, and install the special nut with the different compensations for the strings.

(Edit: I'm wrong about that; see posts below. The Buzz Feiten system can use a straight zero fret, as long as it's positioned correctly. I was confusing it with the Earvana system.)

Regarding the overall use and value of the Buzz Feiten tuning system, my opinion is about the same as most here. It's a clever invention that can improve the sound of guitars in some kinds of musical environments and playing styles. Useful if you are playing clear, ringing, multi-note chords a lot. Not much value everywhere else. Not much use on a bass for most styles of playing. But, nothing wrong with it if it helps you.

It goes in and out of style over time. I build hundreds of necks for Mike Lipe guitars. Some years, he gets lots of orders for Buzzed guitars, and I machine up the fingerboards. Other seasons (like now), none. And sometimes I have to De-Buzz a few, when dealers or customers change their mind. I've only Buzzed one or two basses for customers.

 

[Matt Liebenau]

I remember seeing an MTD (I think) fretless years ago with a Feiten sticker on the back of the headstock. It seemed “interesting.” A fretless with a special nut to improve the fretted tuning.

Sorry, kinda off topic but all the Buzz Feiten talk made me remember it.

 

[testing1two]

Well, you can't really have a Buzz Feiten tuning system with a zero fret. If a standard MTD Kingston Artist uses a zero fret, then to convert it to the Buzz system, you'd have to pull the zero fret, cut off the fingerboard 0.030" forward of the "0" line, and install the special nut with the different compensations for the strings.

Regarding the overall use and value of the Buzz Feiten tuning system, my opinion is about the same as most here. It's a clever invention that can improve the sound of guitars in some kinds of musical environments and playing styles. Useful if you are playing clear, ringing, multi-note chords a lot. Not much value everywhere else. Not much use on a bass for most styles of playing. But, nothing wrong with it if it helps you.

It goes in and out of style over time. I build hundreds of necks for Mike Lipe guitars. Some years, he gets lots of orders for Buzzed guitars, and I machine up the fingerboards. Other seasons (like now), none. And sometimes I have to De-Buzz a few, when dealers or customers change their mind. I've only Buzzed one or two basses for customers.

I thought BFTS did not use compensated nut slots (like Earvana) with different graduations for each string and thus a zero fret, if positioned correctly, would work fine (standard on MTD basses IIRC). I know they sell a shelf nut so you don't have to saw away at your fingerboard but besides the offset it's just a bone nut, right?. If so, the lefty bass already has the zero fret in the right place so it's just a matter of installing a new nut, making the necessary bridge adjustments and tuning to the offsets.

How To Identify A BFTS Guitar

EDIT: from the BFTS FAQ:

Can the tuning system be installed on fretted stringed instrument with a zero fret (like the Mobius, MTD Basses, or selected models of Warr Guitars) ?

Yes. In these cases, the zero fret is positioned exactly the same as the BFTS Shelf Nut in accordance with the BFTS specifications for a particular guitar; the repositioning of the zero fret produces the exact same effect as the installation of our Shelf Nut. In addition, with the zero fret performing the specific purpose of nut repositioning, the BFTS Shelf Nut can still be used behind the zero fret for string spacing (you still need a nut for this) and to display the BFTS Logo.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

I thought BFTS did not use compensated nut slots (like Earvana) with different graduations for each string and thus a zero fret, if positioned correctly, would work fine (standard on MTD basses IIRC). I know they sell a shelf nut so you don't have to saw away at your fingerboard but besides the offset it's just a bone nut, right?. If so, the lefty bass already has the zero fret in the right place so it's just a matter of installing a new nut, making the necessary bridge adjustments and tuning to the offsets.

How To Identify A BFTS Guitar

EDIT: from the BFTS FAQ:

Can the tuning system be installed on fretted stringed instrument with a zero fret (like the Mobius, MTD Basses, or selected models of Warr Guitars) ?

Yes. In these cases, the zero fret is positioned exactly the same as the BFTS Shelf Nut in accordance with the BFTS specifications for a particular guitar; the repositioning of the zero fret produces the exact same effect as the installation of our Shelf Nut. In addition, with the zero fret performing the specific purpose of nut repositioning, the BFTS Shelf Nut can still be used behind the zero fret for string spacing (you still need a nut for this) and to display the BFTS Logo.

Okay, it sounds like you are right, the Buzz system does work with a properly positioned zero fret. I was confusing it with the Earvana system, which we also install on some of Mike's guitars.

 

[testing1two]

Okay, it sounds like you are right, the Buzz system does work with a properly positioned zero fret. I was confusing it with the Earvana system, which we also install on some of Mike's guitars.

Do you like one system over the other? I've played or owned a number of BF guitars over the years (none at present) but never tried the Earvana nut.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Do you like one system over the other? I've played or owned a number of BF guitars over the years (none at present) but never tried the Earvana nut.

I'm not qualified to judge them from a players' standpoint. I'm a fair old-school style bass player, but I can only strum a few chords on a guitar. My experience with these two systems is from an engineer/Luthier viewpoint. My clients (other Luthiers like Mike Lipe) order necks from me, and sometimes they want them machined for the Buzz or the Earvana systems. They hand me the kit of parts with the instructions, and I make up the necks.

Mike himself is a seriously good blues guitarist, with over to 50 years (!) playing in smokey bars. And about that many years building guitars. We've been working together since the early 1990's, and I've been building almost all of his neck structures since about 2002. I've done over 750 necks for him so far. His guitars are mostly custom order, with a lot of options. For a small fee, he'll fit it with the Buzz system or the Earvana system. But not very many of his customers go for them, either one. Some years, we'd do a couple per year. Other years, none.

On his own personal guitars, Mike doesn't use either one.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Hey, TB'ers, I found a closeup of the MTD Kingston Artist Left Handed bass. There seems to be a zero fret, but can anyone tell if the string nut looks unusual? Looks like an Ibanez Sr 38mm string nut. I can buy those pre-cut from Ibanez or eBay.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Since that bass has a zero fret, and it's set up for the Buzz Feiten system, it's actually pretty easy to De-Buzz it. The zero fret needs to be moved back (toward the headstock) 0.030". There's plenty of space, no need to touch the existing nut.

Two ways to do this:

1.) Pull the zero fret, fill the slot with a veneer strip and glue, saw a new slot 0.030" back, reinstall the zero fret. That's the permanent De-Buzz treatment.

Note that 0.030" isn't much. The fret's tang is only 0.022" thick. So, the slot is being moved just a little more than one slot width. The old filled slot will still be hidden under the crown of the fret.

2.) Pull the zero fret and install a new one of Jumbo size wire, back into the same slot. File the crown down and into a shallow wedge shape, with the high side toward the headstock. Work it so the edge that the string sees is 0.030" back from the center of the fret tang and 0.010" above the other frets (as is typical for zero frets). A shaped, offset zero fret. That way, if you later want to Re-Buzz it, you can pull the special fret and put a regular zero fret back in.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Since that bass has a zero fret, and it's set up for the Buzz Feiten system, it's actually pretty easy to De-Buzz it. The zero fret needs to be moved back (toward the headstock) 0.030". There's plenty of space, no need to touch the existing nut.

Two ways to do this:

1.) Pull the zero fret, fill the slot with a veneer strip and glue, saw a new slot 0.030" back, reinstall the zero fret. That's the permanent De-Buzz treatment.

Note that 0.030" isn't much. The fret's tang is only 0.022" thick. So, the slot is being moved just a little more than one slot width. The old filled slot will still be hidden under the crown of the fret.

2.) Pull the zero fret and install a new one of Jumbo size wire, back into the same slot. File the crown down and into a shallow wedge shape, with the high side toward the headstock. Work it so the edge that the string sees is 0.030" back from the center of the fret tang and 0.010" above the other frets (as is typical for zero frets). A shaped, offset zero fret. That way, if you later want to Re-Buzz it, you can pull the special fret and put a regular zero fret back in.

Thank you sir! Happy Fourth of July!

 

[Gilmourisgod]

It seems like a highly developed form of Autotune would make the Feiten system obsolete, any tiny pitch variation due to differences in pressure would be digitally “fixed”. Is that even desirable? Seems like that would filter out anything that makes each player unique, and Lord how I loathe what that’s done to pop music vocals, Always seemed like a solution looking for a problem on bass, maybe more discernible on guitar chords?

 

[Hopkins]

I've heard things like this on guitar forums and maybe here a time or two previously. I can hear the difference between an instrument using BFTS and one that doesn't. It is easiest to hear with a guitar because a variety of chords demonstrate tuning problems more clearly than single notes. Guitar tuning is also easier to discern because its higher frequencies make it easier for the human ear to determine pitch. To deny that there is an intonation problem between different strings as they go up and down the fretboard in stringed instruments naive. It has been documented for decades. A variety of tempering systems have been developed to compensate for this. Buzz Feiten's is one of them. It's cheap if it's built into the original instrument and more costly to add later.

It can only compensate for temperament up to the first fret. After that first fret like all, straight fretted guitars each semitone is going to be slightly out of tune because it is just the nature of the instrument. The BFTS is just a waste of money in my opinion.

 

[Hopkins]

Forgive my ignorance, but if the frets are in the right place then why should any of the notes on the fretboard be anything but perfect? Isn't that why they are where they are on the fretboard?

I'm missing something here... Is it because of the height of the nut isn't taken into account in the distance between open string and the first fret? If so why don't they factor that in a bit?

An instrument with perfect temperament has frets that look like this

 

[Gilmourisgod]

How do they even cut slots for that, CNC? Then bend fretwire to match? I hate to think what a refret costs. I’ll stick with imperfection. You can drive yourself crazy with a strobe tuner intonating, then nobody hears it anyway.

 

[SteveCS]

Wouldn't a intrument that uses a zero fret instead of a nut eliminate this problem just as well?

Well perhaps, but the reality is that correctly cut nut slots, i.e. to the same height as a zero fret would be, also solves the problem. IME, nut slots off the shelf are rarely cut deep enough...

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Sheesh. Maybe I'll pass on the MTD and just get a Schecter... lol

 

[Pilgrim]

Unfortunately, it is unable to compensate for varying pressure being applied to the string during the course of fretting the instrument. If you squeeze a string harder it will drive it sharp. To be truly accurate the tuning system must adjust on the fly to varying conditions. In that regard, and electronically controlled nut just might be the answer. I hear Intel is working on the chip set.....

Maybe Henry J. At Gibson could have turned his failed auto-tune system into something to compensate. (Nudge, nudge, wink wink.)

 

[Turnaround]

Maybe Henry J. At Gibson could have turned his failed auto-tune system into something to compensate. (Nudge, nudge, wink wink.)

Say no more.

 

[Turnaround]

An instrument with perfect temperament has frets that look like this View attachment 3071639

And guess what .... it doesn't work.

1. If you bend notes it's going to get a bit crazy.
2. As I noted earlier, E in the key of C is not the same pitch as E in the key of F. It's a problem for ALL instruments with fixed notes. Fretless string instruments don't have the problem - depending on the player. In most cases with fretless players all notes are off. So this bit of fret-hell is good in one key only.
3. Change string gauge and you'll need to refret with slightly different fret twists.
4. Adjust your nut height - oops all intonation at the first fret is off.

Oh never mind. Twisty frets are good conversation starters. So if you have trouble striking up a conversation with strangers, get some twisties and drop the therapy.

 

[Pilgrim]

Say no more.