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Cabs on both sides for small gigs with no PA?

#21
Nephilymbass said:
Title pretty much says it but I’ll elaborate. My bands been playing originals gigs with full PA provided by the venues for 17 years.
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Dont think with full PA support the sound engineers stacked all of the PA cabs vertically as mirror image just to get best balanced disperion in the house addressed to each listener in the audience

Seriously you'll get a similar disperion FOH with your bass cabs as you allready experienced with full PA support. Regarding (claimed) delay issues the laws of acoustic science don't distinguish very mutch between full PA and MI bass cabinets.

Btw, may be I actually should stack all of my PA cabs vertical or at least as narrow as possible rather than left and right stage sided just to have best dispersion FOH for vocals and keys and drum kit and 6-string and the bass guitar for sure (just kidding)
 
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#24
CapnSev said:
Putting cabs at both ends of the stage like that typically causes major phasing issues and creates muddy low end warbling.
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But we're not allowed to consider that here. This is rapidly becoming one of those threads that gets sucked into a vaccume. Only say what wants to be heard. If that trend continues, I'll be excusing myself from this discussion, most likely to the joy if some.
 
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#27
Old Garage-Bander said:
But we're not allowed to consider that here. This is rapidly becoming one of those threads that gets sucked into a vaccume. Only say what wants to be heard. If that trend continues, I'll be excusing myself from this discussion, most likely to the joy if some.
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im listening to everyone, I think the only thing that’s hard to determine is who’s saying what they’ve heard or read somewhere and who’s actually done it and knows from actual experience. I mean my ampeg cabs pretty much suck on paper but I like the way they sound you know.
 
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#28
Nephilymbass said:
im listening to everyone, I think the only thing that’s hard to determine is who’s saying what they’ve heard or read somewhere and who’s actually done it and knows from actual experience. I mean my ampeg cabs pretty much suck on paper but I like the way they sound you know.
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Looks like post #22 actually gave you an instance of real world experience.
From my perspective though, there must be a good reason most people aren't doing this.
Not sayin' you should jump off the cliff just 'cause everyone else is.
But I also think your question got somewhat sidetracked by the speaker seperation mention compared to your concern about not hearing your vocals.

Maybe a fresh start with a new thread asking how to hear your own vocals better, (don't mention separating the cabs) will focus the discussion on your problem.
 
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#31
Nephilymbass said:
im listening to everyone, I think the only thing that’s hard to determine is who’s saying what they’ve heard or read somewhere and who’s actually done it and knows from actual experience. I mean my ampeg cabs pretty much suck on paper but I like the way they sound you know.
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Your drummer isn't amplified at all. If you want listen to the kick drum then the band in total don't wants to push excessive loudness. Long time ago (way in the past) I learned that the drum kit "leads" the total loudness of the band.
 
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#33
I do a similar setup for some gigs.
Mostly so the band members on the far side of the band stand can hear me. Markbassb 1-12 combo on my side, Markbass 1-12 extension cabinet about 40’ away. It’s a 25 member Uke club band. Audience is usually between 100 and 175 people. About 80 shows under our belt.
On two occasions I was asked to turn down.
I’m sure the sound is not always sonically perfect,but for this application it’s a perfect set up. When I’ve used just the combo for smaller gigs, the band can’t always hear me to a level they’re used to.
 
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#34
ThisBass said:
Your drummer isn't amplified at all. If you want listen to the kick drum then the band in total don't wants to push excessive loudness. Long time ago (way in the past) I learned that the drum kit "leads" the total loudness of the band.
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Yep volume level is very much based on the drummer for us. Whether that be overall volume at acoustic gigs with the small PA or stage volume at the full on electric gigs with full pa. Drummer does use the hotrod sticks or whatever they are called for the acoustic stuff. Plays an acrylic Truth kit and the kick is actually pretty loud and fat compared to the rest of the kit with those sticks
 
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#35
I'd say the traditional placement of your bass gear is just fine and much better than splitting the cabs up in the way you are suggesting.

But I would ask why on a low volume gig are you need to use 2 cabs? On these gigs maybe you should only need to bring one cab? If one of your current cabs can't cover this gig I'd suggest that you need to replace it with one that can.

Seems to me that you actually need to address a different problem. . . . the one that is caused by your lack of vocal monitoring.
 
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#36
ThisBass said:
Btw, may be I actually should stack all of my PA cabs vertical or at least as narrow as possible rather than left and right stage sided just to have best dispersion FOH for vocals and keys and drum kit and 6-string and the bass guitar for sure (just kidding)
Click to expand...

I ran sound for several years as a sort of hobby on these great little shows in a local back yard with smaller national recording artists. I got the shows because I enjoyed it, and the sound company owner didn't trust anyone else with it. These were 2-300 dyed in the wool music lovers who were paying a good bit of money. I usually had a Yamaha 01V digital board (which was very flexible and sounded, eh, fine) and some 2 way powered EAW'S.

With 1-3 performers, I got the absolute best sound by stacking those cabinets vertically, top one upside down to get the tweeters together, off to one side of the performers. FAR better dispersion, fewer dead spots, cleaner mids and highs. The only down side was "looked funny." Same with subs on more "normal" gigs- I had a lot of conversations with band's and club managers. I'd rather err on the side of best sound, they'd rather it "look right." Not the end of the world, just more work for slightly less good sound.

So, yes. Stack em when you can, spread em when you have to because fashion, or if there's a specific reason, like trying to cover an unusual amount of width (and even that only applies to the mids and highs).
 
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#37
Sounds to me the real problem is lack of vocal monitors. Setting a small powered wedge in front of you resolves your issue. Setting a pair at the front of the stage would let you move the mains farther forward and minimizes feedback. For small gigs I always bring my own vocal monitor(s).
 
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#38
Acoustic guitars, no monitoring on stage nothing at all except for the bass guitar, drummer plays with hotrod sticks etc.
I played in a similar band format many years before except I had no monitoring on stage for the bass guitar.

I think you have all the options possible you like to want. You can place your cabs apart or you can stack the cabs the "standard" way, or just bring only one cab. You will easily notice if the bass guitar makes too much noise within the total band FOH. You will "feel" the "total" sound that goes FOH and you will adjust your bass guitar volume level accordingly.

Personally I'd give some consideration to the amount of effects to vocals. IME that's an essential part for the "quality" of vocal sound monitored on stage via PA cabs. Too much of reverb or delay for vocals and 6-string will easily "muddy" the feel for backing vocal voicing and also will "smash" the total sound you perceive on stage.
If there is need for effects then the effects should be "only a little" and "quick" at most. That's as well for vocals and also for the acoustic 6-string. Personally I'd prefere a dry FOH sound for the vocals just to have best "articulation" for vocals and total sound on stage

That all said IME these things are way more important for a good working band concept like yours meant to make everybody happy than considerations of how to stack the bass cabs.
 
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#39
I did it for several years, off and on, depending on venue and band layout, usually with very good results! Actually first requested by our keyboard player, so they could hear the bass better!! (Yeah, that KB stayed off the left hand very well.) It was a low volume group and only the vocals were in the PA, run by guitar player. I daisy-chained two combos with a 20' instrument cable, effects send to effects return, so the other side could even adjust their master volume to their own taste.

Once a fellow bass player in the audience commented how even the bass sounded all over the room! He thought me a wizard when I showed him the hookup. I did, occasionally, stack the combos vertically, too, but not as often.

More recently I'm usually in a high volume group with EVERYTHING in the massive PA and few, if any, stage amps. Great, when the monitors are well mixed. But, I miss having more direct control. (sigh)

TRY IT! It just might work for you. Did for me/us.
 
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#40
muddycreek said:
I ran sound for several years as a sort of hobby on these great little shows in a local back yard with smaller national recording artists. I got the shows because I enjoyed it, and the sound company owner didn't trust anyone else with it. These were 2-300 dyed in the wool music lovers who were paying a good bit of money. I usually had a Yamaha 01V digital board (which was very flexible and sounded, eh, fine) and some 2 way powered EAW'S.

With 1-3 performers, I got the absolute best sound by stacking those cabinets vertically, top one upside down to get the tweeters together, off to one side of the performers. FAR better dispersion, fewer dead spots, cleaner mids and highs. The only down side was "looked funny." Same with subs on more "normal" gigs- I had a lot of conversations with band's and club managers. I'd rather err on the side of best sound, they'd rather it "look right." Not the end of the world, just more work for slightly less good sound.

So, yes. Stack em when you can, spread em when you have to because fashion, or if there's a specific reason, like trying to cover an unusual amount of width (and even that only applies to the mids and highs).
Click to expand...
For one or two shows we actually had to stack our smallish PA stuff vertically. Of course it works but there is something missing versus a good aligned left/right placement. Unfortunatelly about >90% of the semi pros don't give enough respect to "proper" alignment of the cabs thus give away sound quality in the house.
Biggest sin possible a soundguy can do to the sound in the house was to adjust the left top to the left side and the right top to the right side of the audience, or the left side top "pushes" straight on while the right one "fires" somewhat angled to the right side.
Subs can also be a little bit "tweaked" but I think that becomes too off topic
 

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