Cabs on both sides for small gigs with no PA?

[Silas Stingy]

I never played in a band where the bass stops me hearing my vocals, unless it's full of fuzz or distortion. I'd be surprised especially in an acoustic gig if this was the case.

A vocal monitor and getting further away from drums and guitars is the way to go.

 

[chadds]

Read the whole thread. If your dog is digging in your flower beds why get a cat? Or...you have a hearing your vocal problem. Small EV powered monitor can be amazing.
Is your bass balanced with the whole group out front? If yes don’t change a thing about the bass. Perhaps one bass cab and you turn up a little will actually clean up your mix. Each instrument coming from its actual location.
This isn’t rocket surgery. People have been doing this since Noah came ashore on Gilligan’s Island.

 

[Honch]

Find this quite peculiar and funny. If the incentive was for hearing vocals better, I think you'll end up with the same whatever you do. Since vocals are not in the same range as bass, the only thing that will get you hear more vocals, or the vocals better is to turn down volume of any other instrument, and that includes the drummer playing acoustics too, and let the level of the voices stay the same. Everything else suggested is a total waste of time, and bogus, and not even overthinking. Just pseudo-acoustic pseudo science.

Think Occams Razor on this one.

 

[Rick James]

the only thing that will get you hear more vocals, or the vocals better is to turn down volume of any other instrument, and that includes the drummer playing acoustics too, and let the level of the voices stay the same. .

That might not make much difference. The main reason for not hearing vocals well is that midrange and high frequencies are very directional, and the PA is usually pointed at the audience, not at the band. Sometimes you can put the PA so that it aims at both, but not always.

 

[Honch]

And bass frequencies are NOT directional. Go figure.

 

[HauntedDave]

This will most definitely cause stage versus venue volume issues. What starts sounding not so good on stage equals not sounding so good to the audience.

 

[JRA]

for very low volume gigs as you describe: almost any configuration can work.
good luck!

 

[-Asdfgh-]

That might not make much difference. The main reason for not hearing vocals well is that midrange and high frequencies are very directional, and the PA is usually pointed at the audience, not at the band. Sometimes you can put the PA so that it aims at both, but not always.

monitors

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

And bass frequencies are NOT directional. Go figure.

At least not in small spaces/venues.
If you can have distances of multiple wavelengths of the low frequencies, I think you might be able to squeeze out some directionality and separation. But for bass, there's not much point in worrying about it.

 

[Engle]

im listening to everyone, I think the only thing that’s hard to determine is who’s saying what they’ve heard or read somewhere and who’s actually done it and knows from actual experience. I mean my ampeg cabs pretty much suck on paper but I like the way they sound you know.

I tried it a few times and it didn’t work that well. Now I use 2 x 210AV cabs stacked vertically beside the drummer. (No bass in the PA)

 

[ThisBass]

but I’m considering running one cab on each side of the drums.

I guess the bass cabs to be not more apart than 10 ft.
The cabs would couple acoustically by 100% for frequencies about 50Hz and among them.
The frequency range for about 50..100Hz then is kinda transsion range were acoustical coupling will decrease gradually till the frequency point the cabs act as "two" independent acoustical sources, which in this case was about 100Hz.
IMO/IME that's not so bad just to have a good condition for the total "sub" response.
Of course you'll gain "better" coupling for the low range the more close you "stack" the cabinets but, IMO/IME I can't see any serious "science" reasoning for doom-monkering as long as the cabs are not too apart from one another.

For PA subs its common practice to highsteep low pass the sub cabs not higher than about 110Hz.
This means that even for PA subs there is no compelling need to stack narrow side by side in the horizontal plane closer than about 5 ft just to get very good results for the sub cabinets total response.

 

[BassmanPaul]

Been there, done that and it sounded great - from the stage! Out in the room not so much with louder a quieter areas all over the place. Stack your cabinet for better overall coverage.

 

[ThisBass]

Us Jersey guys know how to run subs properly, LOL!. I run the sound for my band and I have to always defend why I place the subs together in the center of the stage. They see every other band run them incorrectly, split under the mains, and think that is correct.

Experienced sound guys don't exclusively stack the subs side by side at the "centre".
For smallish PA gear (two tops and two subs) personally I prefere (by default) the "tooth gap" alignment for the subs right in front of the stage.
The advantage versus "side by side" yeilds in better longthroug pattern versus narrow side by side which generates a more sperical pattern.
Another benefit of "tooth gap" alignment predicts in better "coupling" of the subs with L/R mains.

Either way there is neither right nor wrong alignment for the subs rather than wrong alignment to the room acoustic and dimension

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Guys, everyone continues to address the OPs question as if he were concerned with how his bass sounds. I was guilty of that as well.
He clearly stated that his problem is hearing his own vocals.
To address the separated cab issue only requires the OP to get a longer speaker cable and try it out for himself. If it doesn't work, no harm, no foul. If it does work for him, great.
Hopefully he can try this out soon and report back.
If he still can't hear his vocals or doesn't lIke how his bass sounds then maybe he can re-address this without including separated speakers in the equation, which BTW, I've already advised him to do.

 

[abarson]

As a bass player who also sings, nothing will allow you to hear your vocals better than in-ear monitors, but I think that's overkill for small venues. A vocal monitor is the right tool for the job. Monitors like the Mackie SRM150 can be mounted to your mic stand and don't take up valuable floor space. For smaller gigs I'm surprised that one bass cab isn't enough.

 

[ThisBass]

Thanks guys, looks like we definitely need to pick up some monitors either wedges or in ears.

As you want to control the FOH mix and volume level on your own from stage you may want listen to the sound and total level that goes FOH with the QSC mains.
If you play on stage with two or three wedges you may want forewward place the QSC mains. then it may happen you'll need a sound guy that controls the sound and loudness that goes FOH.

edit, its not amusing to hear monitor sound but also have a mixer on the right hand side just to control the sound that goes FOH.

Again, as I told already earlier, for an acoustical band playing like yours there is no compelling need to have wedges on stage for vocal and acoustic guitar "monitoring".
I have seen a lot of bands playing this way and also have long lasting experience doing it the same way. But, the total concept "success" pretty much depends on the amount of effects you intend to bring FOH for the vocals.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Well huh! Back in my day, we didn't have IEM, stage monitors and in the beginning, not even a pa for vocals.
(Walked 20 miles to school in waist deep snow uphill both ways.)
First few gigs we figured out how to use our mics (hi-z unbalanced, for god's sake, gettin bit by 'tricity and all) into our instrument amps.

Wait! What?
There you go. Take feed from your mic and juice a little of it into your bass amp.
There are proper ways this could be done. Don't do my stupid teenager, lucky he didn't get electrocuted like Topsy, tricks.

 

[JGbassman]

Ok, I've scanned through most of the posts, didn't see what I'm going to suggest, so hang on.



As a premise, many here know I've toured professionally, shared stages with bigger names/artists and have found myself in all sorts of crazy situations. When playing country, "acoustic" shows were a big deal. Often a quick stop at an iheart radio station or quick mid day gig before heading to the nights main show was routine. In many occasions, there was little time for sound check or a backline provided system was just plain terrible.

As I sang backup harmonies on most songs, I needed to hear myself sing, but often wasn't given the luxury of a good monitor, ears, or other devices to hear myself properly. I'm not going to even get into gear that malfunctions during a performance.....(Hey we are professionals right? Find a way to work the magic and don't let the audience see you sweat)

A tip I picked up on the road was to carry a set of hearos brand, or another suitable filtering earplugs. Stick these in your pocket and you have a portable vocal monitor with you always.

Can't hear yourself sing? Stick one or two of those in your ears and bam! Instant monitors! Run one and get a great mix of your voice and the ambient sound of stage, or run both and hear yourself as well as any monitoring system built. Seriously, it's that simple and effective. Make sure you have the type that filter and don't close off all the sound, as that will be too much to hear anything else.

Try this before you spend a bunch of money elsewhere. While this won't address the other singers, most of the time I could get enough of a wash from the fronts to know where the lead vocalist was and could hear it well enough to sing my parts.

Here is an acoustic we were playing for a radio station an afternoon before our main show in another city that night. We were somewhere out east, that's all I remember. No amps, monitors, and a little bit of drums. Everything was ran direct. Sound was out the front in a small pa suitable for an acoustic show. Probably 150 in attendance. I was wearing an earplug once I realized they didn't have any stage monitoring and we didn't have time to dig our ears out of the trailer. I heard myself fine.

 

[MegaSwing]

FWIW, it never worked for me. In fact it was resoundingly resented across the stage.

 

[HaphAsSard]

@ everyone: I've read the whole thread, am aware of its premise, agree with everyone's suggestion that the OP procure some sort of means to monitor his vocals (and yes, ^ earplugs would do too).
The above said, and reaffirming that bass cab separation would be, best case scenario, quite a roundabout route to achieve more vocal clarity onstage, IMO it's still useful to discuss its effects for the benefit of anyone interested in trying it for other purposes. At this propos,

I guess the bass cabs to be not more apart than 10 ft.
The cabs would couple acoustically by 100% for frequencies about 50Hz and among them.
The frequency range for about 50..100Hz then is kinda transsion range were acoustical coupling will decrease gradually till the frequency point the cabs act as "two" independent acoustical sources, which in this case was about 100Hz.
IMO/IME that's not so bad just to have a good condition for the total "sub" response.
Of course you'll gain "better" coupling for the low range the more close you "stack" the cabinets but, IMO/IME I can't see any serious "science" reasoning for doom-monkering as long as the cabs are not too apart from one another.

For PA subs its common practice to highsteep low pass the sub cabs not higher than about 110Hz.
This means that even for PA subs there is no compelling need to stack narrow side by side in the horizontal plane closer than about 5 ft just to get very good results for the sub cabinets total response.

^ great post. I've played with this useful applet
Sound Wave Interference Applet
(set at maximum scale, last slider to be clear)
and verified that, while separation at any distance higher than 1/4 wavelength (about 1.75m for 50Hz) causes evident "shading" to the sides, i.e. narrowing of coverage, it is indeed the case that below 3m the coverage pattern is still unilobed and convex; above that point two valleys, at either side, appear, and get deeper and larger the wider the sources are placed, until a "genitals drawn on the wall" (near/midfield hemisphere around either source, plus a "power alley" in the middle) pattern is created.
Great stuff!