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Can a Cable Make That Much of a Difference?!

Does Cable Quality Make a Significant Difference in Live Sound?

  • Yes! I've heard a difference!

    Votes: 35 29.4%
  • I'm not convinced, but open-minded.

    Votes: 32 26.9%
  • $5, $250, don't make no difference!

    Votes: 43 36.1%
  • Carrots

    Votes: 9 7.6%

  • Total voters
    119
  • Poll closed .
How would the 'levels that are of health concern' be determined in the first place if instruments/methods required to reliably measure such levels don't exist? If you can't measure it, how do you know it's there? Would its presence be inferred somehow? I'm not trying to argue, just to understand.

Because levels of concern are typically derived from animal tests that produce No Observed Adverse Effect Levels (NOAELs) and Lowest Observed Adverse Effect Levels (LOAELs). These are typically determined in either mass/animal body weight or normalized for dosing schedules, which puts these study values in units of mg of contaminant per kg of animal body weight per day.

From there, one can use typical exposure factors, such as mean adult body weight and mean consumption rate to convert the dose associated with adverse health effects in a toxicological study to a level of concern for humans for water consumption, or food ingestion, or air inhalation, etc. This process involves the use of Safety Factors; these can often reduce the levels used in a toxicological study to up to three orders of magnitude difference in the data found in the tox study to the level that may be protective of human health.

So, even if an analytical method exists for quantifying chemicals in mammalian tissues, there's no certainty that a method of equal sensitivity exists for beef consumption or consumption of whatever else we might be interested in. Couple this with the safety factors that are use to derive a "safe" level, and the disconnect may be on the order of 1,000-fold.

Many contaminants can be quantified at levels of concern, but some cannot. It's a large area of research, to be sure.


You are proposing that this "noise" exists, but it is relatively easy to visually examine every molecule in a sample of water, and identify every element in it through a variety of tests. In other words, "what noise?"

I am not proposing anything. Analytical instrumentation has a finite level of sensitivity. Noise is the baseline signal of any sort of detector. Now, if you want to suggest that we spend hundreds of trillions of dollars to analyze every cow or every reservoir in the U.S. for every possible contaminant, I suppose it could be done. But at some point, each analytical process will have some limitation based on the signal to noise ratio of the blank signal to that signal produced by a contaminant moving through the detector.

You cannot measure zero, and to suggest that "it is relatively easy to visually examine every molecule in a sample of water" is patently absurd. And after all that, the Reporting Level/Detection Limit argument still stands.

You cannot measure zero, so there is still some possibility that something exists that cannot be measured because it cannot be detected or reliably reported above the natural noise of the instrumentation. This is a fundamental tenet in analytical chemistry or any analytical process.

Can you cite me a literature reference where "it is relatively easy to visually examine every molecule in a sample of water" is stated?
 
OK, after some Googling, I'll back off from that assertion about visual inspection. I was thinking about the many electron microscopy images we've all seen of incredibly minute particles, including contaminants in water:
fossil-marine-diatom.jpg

But I was mistaken about looking at the water molecules themselves.

However I still think you are way overestimating, or overselling, this idea of noise. Just because we cannot measure "zero" doesn't mean we can't get extremely close to zero. Just because there can be interference doesn't mean the data is useless, or that the interference can't be reasonably mitigated or accounted for. For example, I did a series of tests on cables, and during each test each cable was encased in a grounded mu-metal container. Was it a perfect block against every possible form of interference? No. But it did a very good job, enough to satisfy me that the ambient EMF wasn't skewing the results to a degree that would mean anything.

Further: your proposition is that our test technology has limited resolution, and that's true on the face of it. But the resolution gets better all the time, finer and finer each year. And at no point has there been any evidence at any resolution that cables perform differently at audio frequencies. So how far does that noise/resolution argument go to support the idea that cables really DO sound different, that we just can't measure it yet? If there was no evidence of it 50 years ago, and no evidence 10 years ago, and no evidence today... what, will the resolution of our testing in the future get down to such an infinitesimal degree that it will finally prove there is a difference? How could such a difference, requiring such an extremity of discovery, be audible?
 
... what, will the resolution of our testing in the future get down to such an infinitesimal degree that it will finally prove there is a difference? How could such a difference, requiring such an extremity of discovery, be audible?

Bongo, you realize FretlessMainly isn't making that argument? He said earlier that cables don't matter. He's just saying that my assertion "anything that exists can be measured" isn't true in some cases.
 
However I still think you are way overestimating, or overselling, this idea of noise. Just because we cannot measure "zero" doesn't mean we can't get extremely close to zero. Just because there can be interference doesn't mean the data is useless, or that the interference can't be reasonably mitigated or accounted for. For example, I did a series of tests on cables, and during each test each cable was encased in a grounded mu-metal container.

Further: your proposition is that our test technology has limited resolution, and that's true on the face of it. But the resolution gets better all the time, finer and finer each year. And at no point has there been any evidence at any resolution that cables perform differently at audio frequencies.

Not all types of measurement are equal in this argument. As I cited above, as analytical measurement technology improves, in the field of water contamination, the relative source of contamination, that actually being in the water sample vs. ambient levels of contaminants from laboratory standards being stored in the lab (common) or levels being emitted in some fashion from the human performing the analysis (less common, but a real problem for certain chemicals) can become inextricably intertwined.

This phenomenon may not be an issue in assessing the physical properties of an instrument cable, but they are indeed serious hindrances in the measurement of contamination in water or cows or air, etc.

And in environmental science, as a practical matter, if the interferences of the instrumentation do not allow for reliable quantitation (as defined by the analytical method being used), then the data are indeed useless. However, if the matrix (e.g., water, soil, air, cows) causes the interference, the data can still be considered to be viable.

So, my point is that not all things that can exist can be measured. And the cut-off for where or not these entities can be measured will vary based on the type of measurement that is being performed.

Oh, carrots - just keeping this on topic. ;)
 
Now we're measuring animals and water molecules???

The capacitance in the cable will reduce treble just like the tone pot in your bass does. Any difference other than treble response is due to something else, too small a guage for the length of run, broken/frayed connections, poor ground, poor shielding, etc.

Basically what most everybody else is saying. Once hou get a couple steps up from bottom of the barrel, anymore is a waste of money. It does make sense to spend the couple extra bucks on quality connectors, that's where most fail.

Ya gotta watch out for the really cheap stuff. One trick a lot of them will pull is to use very thin guage wire (copper is expensive) and then cover it in really thick insulation so it still feels sturdy in your hands.
 
OK, I have cables from $10 to over $200, and the perceived difference in sound is very, very infinitesimal, and you probably cannot hear that difference while playing in a gig setting! Of course, some individuals that have paid a few hundred bucks for a cable will say that "I do hear a difference!" In reality, that perceived difference is because they want to justify the money that they spent. I've done it!

Lastly, the difference CAN be measured . . . stack up ten one-dollar bills , and then stack up 200 one-dollar bills . . . measure that difference.

And all that is said and done . . . I use the more expensive one! Duh!!! Any cable that has a "no questions asked, return/exchange policy" is worth purchasing!
 
A friend of mine wanted to show me his new Mogami(?) cable he just bought.
After listening I literally thought he plugged a different guitar into his amp.
Old cable: dull.
New cable: vibrant.

So yes, cables are not all the same.

Also, a cable is not something that just allows electrons to flow. It is a transmission line. Not unlike a waveguide used in radar, or an antenna used for an RF signal. Transmission lines have to be "tuned" properly for max efficiency. A few broken strands does not affect it's ability to conduct, but it can affect it's ability to transmit.
So, in the end, one instrument cable design can easily be better than another.
 
Right, but as has been spelled out over and over, the difference is not their "quality" and certainly not their price--it's only their capacitance, and whether they are damaged.

Nobody doubts a difference can be heard--it's just that 99.99% of listeners don't know WHY they heard what they heard, so they go off the deep end with magical thinking and "this brand sounds better" etc.