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Can someone explain old combo amps to me

Jan 6, 2022
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When I look at pictures of bands from the ~60s, I often see bass players playing through small (but probably really heavy) combo amps. I understand that Fender and Vox and such are very famous for these old combo amps from back then. And I know that Fender currently produces a signature Adam Clayton bass combo, that seems to be modeled after those old amps.
Now I'm wondering, what makes these old amps bass amps, and when did they consider an amp a bass amp?
I also saw a Fender combo on Thomann, which is in the guitar amp section, but supposedly also is meant to be used with bass guitar as well.

I've seen people use marshall heads for bass, but specifically I'm interested in if there are reissues of some old Fender/Vox amps that are built to be used as guitar and bass guitar amps.
 
So a couple things I can think of: first off (and this may be obvious, forgive me, I'm all about obvious) - artists back then didn't have the choices we have now, and had to go with whatever was available, affordable, or sponsor given - so you'll see a lot of odd choices perhaps for bass. Second, it all boils down to Leo Fender. He designed the first guitar amps that everybody used, and he didn't make much that was different about his "bass" amps or "guitar" amps. And in fact if I remember correctly it was a Fender Bassman circuit that Jim Marshall famously 'copied' for his first guitar amps. Now of course people understand a lot more about amplification and how you can design an amplifier to specialize for bass or something else, and you have more choices. But in the '60s it wasn't that different.
 
Keep in mind bands became progressively louder over the years. Combos from the mid 60s would, for the most part, not perform well by today's standards.

The ACB 50 has a vintage look but uses a modern ported cab design. I don't believe it's a particularly Fendery sounding amp. Also, 50W is 50W. This is not an amp to push a loud band in a big arena.

1959 Tweed Bassman
medium_6238efa9-3ba5-42cc-a803-b66a6cccc380.jpg

Notice the open back design. This causes low frequencies to cancel and does not provide any loading to control driver excursion. Mediocre as a bass amp...highly coveted as a guitar amp.

AFAIK, many of the 60's era Fender Bassman models were coveted more as guitar amps than bass amps. My understanding is the Dual Showman (85W) was preferred for bass over the Bassman of the era. The Showman 215 cab was larger than the Bassman 215.

Towards the late 60s you start to get bass amps that are significantly differentiated from guitar amps. Also this is when bass amps with more than 100W started to become more common. Examples include Acoustic 360/361 and Ampeg SVT.
 
First of all, they were just figuring out to do it at all in the '60s, and often, the solution to the problem of how to amplify the bass was met inadequately. McCartney's Vox bass rigs come to mind.

As far as I'm concerned, what makes a bass amp a bass amp is whether the speaker system can adequately reproduce bass notes. When I was coming up in that era, there weren't a lot of bass-specific amps, and I was told that any amp with a speaker bigger than a 10" was OK to use for bass; that proved to not be true. Any combo that's open-backed can't be considered a bass amp IMO, and that includes the Fender 1959 Bassman re-issue combo. It carries the Bassman name because it's a reissue of the original Bassman 410 combo that was a fairly miserable bass amp but is/was a highly sought-after guitar amp because of its sound. But other than the speaker system, there's not a lot of difference between a bass amp and a guitar amp other than features (like tremolo or reverb) and (possibly) EQ points. And lots of folks have used Twin Reverb guitar amps as bass heads to drive a bass-specific speaker cab -- it's pretty much the same amplifier circuit as the Dual Showman head, but with more features.
 
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Back then they were just guitar amps and people played the loudest thing they could get their hands on because PA systems didn’t really come into their own til maybe the 70s. Nothing really special about the amps other than the time period.
 
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Keep in mind bands became progressively louder over the years. Combos from the mid 60s would, for the most part, not perform well by today's standards.

The ACB 50 has a vintage look but uses a modern ported cab design. I don't believe it's a particularly Fendery sounding amp. Also, 50W is 50W. This is not an amp to push a loud band in a big arena.

1959 Tweed Bassman
medium_6238efa9-3ba5-42cc-a803-b66a6cccc380.jpg

Notice the open back design. This causes low frequencies to cancel and does not provide any loading to control driver excursion. Mediocre as a bass amp...highly coveted as a guitar amp.

AFAIK, many of the 60's era Fender Bassman models were coveted more as guitar amps than bass amps. My understanding is the Dual Showman (85W) was preferred for bass over the Bassman of the era. The Showman 215 cab was larger than the Bassman 215.

Towards the late 60s you start to get bass amps that are significantly differentiated from guitar amps. Also this is when bass amps with more than 100W started to become more common. Examples include Acoustic 360/361 and Ampeg SVT.
That 1959 410 Bassman amp was a crap bass amp specifically because of its open back design. Of course the Thiele-Small parameters hadn't been determined yet so it was mostly trial and error. That 410 Bassman was a big mistake as it blew speakers all over the place when you tried to play bass through it. Don't EVER try to play bass through an open back cab. Without any back pressure the speakers will exceed their extension limits and tear the speakers apart.

HOWEVER, it turned out to be a great amp for guitarist and they kept selling it as a guitar amp. In fact Fender is selling it again as part of their Blues Breaker series of amps. Back in the mid-60's when I had my Bassman 50-watt 212 amp, the Bassman was already popular with guitarist and as recently as 2010 I saw guitarist using Bassman tube amps.They had a great sound and 20% more power than the corresponding Fender Bandmaster amp that was designed for guitar.

You can get a decent sound out of heads designed for guitar. In fact back in 1997 I had a GK guitar amp that I got from my brother-in-law that had stopped working. A $50 repair fee later, it worked great. I ran it through a couple of JBL 112 PA cabs with that wide horn on top and the sound was great. The problem for speakers comes with the bass frequencies which can require the speakers to move - A LOT - to reproduce those low frequencies well without tearing the speaker apart. It also takes a LOT more power to get the same SPL out of bass speakers than it does out of a guitar amp that doesn't have to deal with those low frequencies. Typically takes about 8 times more power to get to the same level that a 100-watt guitar amp can do for a guitar. So guitars can sound great through a bass amp, but a bass played through a guitar amp at gig levels will tear it apart. Quite bedroom practice should be OK, but not at any level that you'd play along with a drummer at.

The Blackface 50-watt all-tube Bassman amp with 212 cabinet was more popular than the Dual Showman because it was less expensive than the Dual Showman and was still plenty loud enough to play just about anywhere. I was the envy of all the bass players in town when I bought mine in 1966. However, touring nightclub groups usually did choose the Dual Showman for its added power, larger speakers, and better reliability.

In 1966, I bought a brand new Fender Bassman amp for $449 (equivalent to $4,328.30 in today's money). It was still the blackface head but had the bigger cabinet although it still had the 12" Jensen speakers in it. Folks had been turning the 65 and earlier Bassman cabs on end (speakers vertical) and putting the amp on top which gave them a weird "T" profile. So Fender made a bigger cab that the head would not hang over the edges and turned the logo so it was right side up when turned for that vertical alignment. It looked impressive and sounded great. However, the Jensen speakers it came with did not like playing loud in that cab. I blew 3 of those Jensen speakers out of it before I traded it in towards a Standel.

I was touring with a nightclub group throughout the Pacific, Western, and Mid-West US in the early 70's playing 5-nights a week, 50-weeks a year, for three years. I started with my Fender Bassman and everything went swimmingly well until the guitarist and keyboards guys bought Vox Super Beatle amps a few months after I joined them. Then I couldn't be heard. We were playing in Lincoln, Nebraska at a venue that had 900+ occupancy rating and everyone was telling me to turn up when there was nothing more that poor Bassman amp could do.

So the next day I went to the music store in town (Hospe's Music) looking for a Fender Dual Showman. They'd sold their last one two days ago and their store in Omaha, NE was also sold out of them. So I tried everything in the store and came out with a Standel MCIIb/SAM30b piggy-back amp. It was crazy loud and I could bury those 120-watt 412 Super Beatle amps easily. Had to keep it on #3 on the dial indoors or it would push people out the door.

The cab on that Standell was a powered bass reflex cab with 4 round ports placed vertically next to its two vertical CTS 15" speakers. I could actually turn it all the way up and hit my low E without distorting the speakers at all - and yes, I did that in the music store before I bought it. Scared everyone in their downstairs "Bass-ment"! You can buy a guitar amp to use for a bass in a pinch and although the EQ will be optimized for guitar frequencies, it will work OK for Bass, but you CAN'T run a bass at any level you would use in a group through guitar speakers without damaging them or tearing them apart. Just don't do it...
 
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Back then they were just guitar amps and people played the loudest thing they could get their hands on because PA systems didn’t really come into their own til maybe the 70s. Nothing really special about the amps other than the time period.
I toured with a nightclub group playing 5-nights a week, 50-weeks a year, for three years in the early 70's and I can count on one hand the number of venues that provided a PA. And then, when they did provide a PA, it was only for vocals. So yes, you are quite correct, we had to produce all the sound on stage without any FOH reinforcement at least until the end of 1973 when I stopped touring. We had a Kustom 6 channel PA with the 2 towers. Another common PA you'd see bands use was the Shure Vocal Master PA with its two towers.
 
It’s been too many years ago now…but I remember everyone was “daisy chaining” their Fender heads. Bassman to Bassman, Bandmaster to Bandmaster, etc. I don’t recall my pals mixing different heads for example Bassman to Showman. So I think that what the Send/Rec labels were about(?). So some hapless roadie wouldn’t just blow the whole place up.

I too wound up with a Standel for awhile. It was a combo with two 15s. Not bad, especially after graduating from a St.George head with a Bandmaster bottom.
 
I too used a Fender Bassman into 2 JBL D140F cabs for many years and it was fine. I also used a 2 x Showmans driving 2 of the JBL 2x15 cabs when things got louder ... it also worked fine. They weren't combos though so it does not apply to the OP.

I did also have a Baldwin Professional B1 combo, which was (I think) a ~45w amp driving 1x15 and 1x12 in a stupidly heavy combo cabinet. Did not sound great, but did the job. I ended up using it as a distortion amp on top of a Kustom 200/2x15 rig. That was a surprisingly good sounding 60's/70's rock rig.

amps options today are MUCH better :thumbsup:
 
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[QUOTE="Rip Van Dan, post: Another common PA you'd see bands use was the Shure Vocal Master PA with its two towers.[/QUOTE]

The band I gigged and toured with in the mid to late '60s used this PA as well. It was the first PA I had experience with after about 3 years of stage work. No monitors in those days and this PA was dedicated to vocal mics only.

Ancient history and technology.

Koog
 
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I've owned a ridiculous amount of gear since I started playing in 1967. My first bass amp, was a beautiful looking, terrible sounding Supro Thunderbolt. Big open back, probably like 25 watts. After that I got an Ampeg BT-15 C, which was an early solid state Portaflex combo with 2-15's. I had a lot of amps in between, and my next combo, was a mid seventies Traynor Bass Mate. A cool low wattage practice amp, but not much more. Then, I bought an Ampeg B-410. I found one sitting in the back of a music store in Brooklyn, new old stock... after I saw Anthony Jackson playing through one at Buddy's Place in Manhattan. I loved it. Then, that, too proved unsuitable for the gigs I was doing. In those days- late 60's, through the 70's, volume was king. Combos were not going to cut it at all, in most of the venues I was playing. I did own a beautiful 1966 B-15, in mint condition. I put a JBL in it, but it did not prove strong enough an amp to play live gigs. We had no PA support back then. Fast forward to the 90's and me working as a guitar tech in a Reno music store. I bought an Ampeg B-248. Sounded great in the store- but even on a local gig with jazz players, it was terrible. Woefully inadequate. Weighed a ton, too. The next combo I'd buy was an SWR Workingman's 12. Expensive- overpriced, and underbuilt, but o.k. for upright gigs. Then, after that was gone, I got a GK MB 150. Also pretty good for upright, until I heard my bass through a real PA speaker. Sold the GK.
I own one combo now, and it is marginal in some places, but fine in others. A Fender Rumble 200. I like it just fine except for the non-defeatable limiter circuit. Combos, are a compromise- you're 'stuck' with that amp, that cabinet, and that speaker. If you use components- like two lightweight cabs, and a powerful amp that will do say 2 ohms when necessary- that is far more practical. The combo has one real advantage- one piece load in, and the Rumble is 34 pounds, I believe. I use it, and will be using it in a few weeks.
 
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