Can we talk about marijuana?

[Hot Rats]

I guess that's one perception of it; however, are we talking about what other people's drug use has done for us? Or what it has done to/for them?

I'm not sure how you know that these historical figures were drug users. Also, those drugs were not illegal then. Personally, I don't discount the effect legality/illegality has on the experience of the drug use. Illegal drug use requires secrecy, risk, etc. so it is necessarily accompanied by some level of fear and/or anxiety. By the very nature of that, it doesn't allow the user to enjoy the experience in total and complete freedom. That may not have a major impact, but I think it does "flavor" the experience to some extent even if on a subconscious level. What does that mean? Different things for different people...but in the end, there is a negative shadow cast on the whole thing. The point is, I don't know that drug use by historical figures can be use as a solid argument for non-medicinal drug use today.

Was it DaVinci or Van Gogh who cut off his ear and mailed it some a woman?...The question is OT but I was just wondering.

I wasn't using it as an argument for drug use. I was answering the question of how drugs can lead to posative things in people lives and how you said "such as". Art and literature are posative things in some people lives. That's all I was saying.


Throughout my life I have read things about the history of drugs with artists and such. Picked up things here and there. I will conceed that I don't know they were all drug users.

 

[Munjibunga]

I will end this by saying that I don't believe that we can separate drug use from spirituality/religion and be 100% honest with ourselves and in our examination of the topic.

So then atheists are immune to drug abuse. How about agnostics? Seriously, your premise is heavily based on your own conception of "spirituality," a term that has no useful meaning, since it means something different to pretty much everyone who uses the term. While drugs play a formal role in many religions, it doesn't mean that the two are inseparably interrelated. I've known a lot of people who used drugs who never gave a second thought to religion or "spirituality." Most of them, in fact.

 

[Grabow]

i know 2 guys still smoking alot in thier 50's
one lives on welfare just scaring bye
the other lives at home with his mother

never mind the scare tatics used in these anti drug commercials and ads
gateway drug and other non sense
just being 50 and screwed up is enough

 

[Schlyder]

I have to shake my head at the OP and his position. He claims being an educator, and yet has shown a very limited and biased knowledge of the topic he presents here. Hardly a good position for an educator to not know the subject material he is teaching. And then ask to be spoonfed information on the topic. Really? (hint * Do a google search.)
And also, to have a closed mind and discount any contrary information to your pre-determined position is hardly a good strategy for finding enlightenment.

I am more concerned about how dumb kids are coming out of schools nowadays.
(And I don't think it's the kids fault.)

 

[Lee H]

If true, that is very sad. I don't know if that entails retracting prop 215, but re-criminalizing it for people who need it is just very sad in my eyes, and a giant step backwards.

Not only does AB1300 allow local city and county jurisdictions the right to close storefront marijuanana dispensaries, but also to regulate and even outright ban cultivation transportation and even use within that jurisdiction. Since prop 215 offered a conditional privilege, and not a civil right, this is completely legal.. The local dispensaries all have "close down" orders effective as of Jan 1. They have all ready tried legal action, and it was summarily dismissed. Cultivation regulation is all ready being discussed.
You may see it as a huge step backwards, but many see it as a the first step in rectifying a mistake. ...

Here is the part no marijuana smoker wants to accept, but it is absolutely 100% true. The smokers/users are responsible for this action. We voted for prop 215, thinking we would get responsible use by truly sick individuals, in the privacy of their own homes. We DID NOT want store front dispensaries opening, and hiring DRs who would offer up prescriptions for the cost of a $150 office visit, and a list of made up symptoms. We did NOT want or expect users to assume that marijuana use was an inalienable right that the non smoking majority had to tolerate... We did not vote in favor of dealing with the lack of maturity, and we do not have to tolerate it...
Here is the deal. non smokers do not have to stop marijuana use. All they have to do is vote in local ordinances that make use inconvenient enough that users choose to move to an area where their habit is more readily enabled.

 

[Mike M.]

I'm 58 and the last time I smoked maijuana was in 1988. Never snorted anything, never took pills and never shot anything up either because I saw all too many times the negative effects it had on too many people, including death.

My marijuana usage was very, very nill. I think I tried it a grand total of 15 times and I got either very high from it or it had no effect on me what so ever. I'm glad I tried it because I found out it's something that I don't need. When I did get high from it I didn't enjoy the feeling because I felt like I wasn't in control of myself. That's also why I very seldom ever drink. Hell, this year I think I drank a grand total of three beers!

Not saying I'm better than anyone and each to thier own. It's just something that I don't like or need.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Really. Like what?

Check page four for my response, as well as the responses of a few other TB'ers.

 

[Lee H]

I think I have a 6 pack of beer in the garage fridge... not even sure though...
So far for the holiday season I had a shot of baily's in a cup of coffee (which I didn't finish)

 

[fingerbun]

To OP, I am sure you expected the range of views you got here.

You need to give your class both sides and get them thinking imo. Otherwise you are just throwing propaganda at them. So for example, the notion in this thread of a possible causal link between dope and schizophrenia....you can discuss the risks, and talk about whether the benefits are worth the risks.

I would be wary of stereotypes. I have seen people function successfully for years with drug habits and others whose lives have been tragically ruined. So if anyone says to me 'It's always bad" or "It's always good" I assume they have an agenda to justify. A discussion about what makes it bad vs what makes it good becomes interesting.

If it helps, I personally don't use dope at all and don't get drunk, and it comes down to risk for me. But I have one brother who is an alcoholic and another who is a reformed junkie, so I am very aware of how it can all go bad. (And by the way, in some ways alcohol is worse than heroin imo...for example coming off heroin cold turkey is unpleasant but can be done, where as coming off alcohol cold turkey can kill you).

I also think asking "Why is alcohol legal and dope not" might be a way to get them thinking.

 

[fingerbun]

How about almost everything associated with the long journey we call human existance? Artists, writers, religion, social ceremonies, etc, bla, bla, bla......Do you think Leonardo Da Vinci, Shakespeare, Monet and a million other important figures in history didn't use drugs?
Lots of wonderful, great things happened because humans altered their minds.

Answering your question, YES I am sure some important figures didn't use drugs.

I'm sure some important figures did and some didn't. As far as I am aware there is NO evidence that Da Vinci, Shakespeare or Monet used anything, and equally no evidence that they didn't.

Feel free to post links to evidence if you have any, and if not, why did you see that statement as necessary?

 

[fingerbun]

So then atheists are immune to drug abuse. How about agnostics? Seriously, your premise is heavily based on your own conception of "spirituality," a term that has no useful meaning, since it means something different to pretty much everyone who uses the term. While drugs play a formal role in many religions, it doesn't mean that the two are inseparably interrelated. I've known a lot of people who used drugs who never gave a second thought to religion or "spirituality." Most of them, in fact.

Does spirituality have to be about God?

Struggling with words here, but I thought TF's point was how many humans need to take substances in order to manage their own personal sorrow or inhibitions. I think it's an interesting question. It can surely embrace one's own internal spirit....doesn't have to be about some external god or gods.

Dunno if it is straying too far from OPs goal here.....

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Answering your question, YES I am sure some important figures didn't use drugs.

I'm sure some important figures did and some didn't. As far as I am aware there is NO evidence that Da Vinci, Shakespeare or Monet used anything, and equally no evidence that they didn't.

Feel free to post links to evidence if you have any, and if not, why did you see that statement as necessary?

I thought it was well known that Shakespeare was quite a fan of the drink. I'm not sure where I heard that from exactly, but I believe I read that sometime back in high school.

 

[metron]

I agree however the op didnt start this thread for enlightenment. Their mind is made up. The purpose is to practice rebutting the counter arguments you all are presenting. Most of you are wasting your time here.

Op i realize you have a job to do but at least be open to learning things you may not fully understand. Opinions are not necessarily facts.

I have to shake my head at the OP and his position. He claims being an educator, and yet has shown a very limited and biased knowledge of the topic he presents here. Hardly a good position for an educator to not know the subject material he is teaching. And then ask to be spoonfed information on the topic. Really? (hint * Do a google search.)
And also, to have a closed mind and discount any contrary information to your pre-determined position is hardly a good strategy for finding enlightenment.

I am more concerned about how dumb kids are coming out of schools nowadays.
(And I don't think it's the kids fault.)

 

[fingerbun]

I thought it was well known that Shakespeare was quite a fan of the drink. I'm not sure where I heard that from exactly, but I believe I read that sometime back in high school.

Some great artists used drugs, including drink, others not. I was challenging the assertion that all great human advance comes from mind altering substances.

I have never had a beer with Shakespeare, but others here may have.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Some great artists used drugs, including drink, others not. I was challenging the assertion that all great human advance comes from mind altering substances.

I have never had a beer with Shakespeare, but others here may have.

Point taken

 

[Jools4001]

Really. Like what?

Well, my wife has secondary progressive Multiple Sclerosis. For those that don't fully understand what that is, it's an incurable degenerative neurological disease that ultimately destroys the function of the central nervous system. In time, depending on the completely random nature of the disease progression, it may well leave her being unable to speak coherently, she may have to be tube fed because her ability to swallow may be totally impaired, she may have to be catheterised and have a colostomy to deal with dual incontinence, and she may lose the use of her legs and arms, may lose her sight or just about anything that is a function of the central nervous sytem...which is just about everything..

She is already reduced to being in a wheelchair full time, needs to have her food cut up for her because she can't use her hands properly and has some speech and cognitive issues that are typical of MS. The secondary progressive stage of the illness means that she no longer has periods of remission and, basically, it's all downhill from here - and some of the other symptoms described above are already starting to manifest themselves.

Outwardly, people with advanced stages of MS will look pretty much like Professor Stephen Hawking. He has Motor Neurone disease, which is a completely different thing, but the outward effects look pretty much the same...except that MS also impairs cognitive function.

We are both in our mid 50's. I work as a programme manager for a multinational, before my wife was diagnised and had to give up work because of her condition she was a paliative care nurse helping people with terminal conditions (including MS) to die with dignity. WE are not stoners.

And yet, canabinoids are reputedly very good at alleviating the constant neurological pain, cramps and muscle spasms that MS engenders, so we tried it a year or rwo ago on her birthday.

My wife has never smoked cigarettes and found smoking weed very difficult. I dabbled with Marijuana a couple of times in student days but left it alone for 30 plus years, so it wasn't easy....I couldn't even remember how to skin up properly.

Eventually, after a lot of inept floundering, we both managed to get moderately stoned and enjoyed one of the first evenings in years where we were both able to giggle like lunatics - just some brief respite from dealing with the relentless daily grind of dealing with a progressive, crippling deisease

That seems pretty positive to me.

We won't be making a habit of it, and haven't repeated the experience but it was fun while it lasted.

 

[Turock]

Interesting point. And I agree as there's a good chance they'll just shut down, laugh, and consider me one of "them". Which is ironically the whole reason behind the original post.

Thus far, I've got the respect of these kids. They like and trust me. I want to present information to them that they obviously don't have, and do it in a respectful way that educates, and might help them at least think about the other side. I don't agree with those who believe pot is harmless. And I don't believe it's beneficial in any way either. Not even for it's medical uses. My opinion. Which is based on many years of experience. Both my own, and others.

It appears to me that you want to present your opinions as facts. Judging from your posts, they should consider you as one of "them"; you are.

 

[Devils Advocate]

I have to shake my head at the OP and his position. He claims being an educator, and yet has shown a very limited and biased knowledge of the topic he presents here. Hardly a good position for an educator to not know the subject material he is teaching. And then ask to be spoonfed information on the topic. Really? (hint * Do a google search.)
And also, to have a closed mind and discount any contrary information to your pre-determined position is hardly a good strategy for finding enlightenment.

I am more concerned about how dumb kids are coming out of schools nowadays.
(And I don't think it's the kids fault.)

Thank you for your superior wisdom. I will spend the rest of the next 2 days now making sure I know every fact and statistic, both positive and negative, regarding marijuana.

Please tell me the things you believe I should be telling them regarding the "other" side to this debate. Please post links to the statistics I can so easily google to show that there are benefits to the use of this substance as a recreational drug? I posted this so I could hear the arguments I will be up against, and then decide how I'm going to present it. IMO, as an educator, that's a pretty good idea. Sorry if it doesn't gell well with you. I'd really appreciate those links please, and while the rest of this was sarcastic, the request is not.

As for my having made up my mind on this already, did I state something that may have sounded like I didn't? Is there a problem with having a firm stance on something? Something that you know can reak severe damage on people's lives? I never, once said anywhere in this thread that if you smoke pot you will absolutely, with out a doubt, suffe rsomehow. I am certain though that the benefits of NOT smoking pot, far outweigh any percieved benefits of smoking it. You can not convince me that there is any good reason for a teenager to light up a joint and get stoned. Can I convince you that there is good reason for someone to get drunk and get behind the wheel of a car? I know that's a bad ananology, and likely to fire up a ton of responses why the 2 are different, but the point is I've seen pot do lots of damage. A lot more damage than good. I know what it's capable of doing. This is what I believe kids need to be educated about. Not the fact that government has ulterior motives to keep it illegal.

 

[Tituscrow]

Well, my wife has secondary progressive Multiple Sclerosis. For those that don't fully understand what that is, it's an incurable degenerative neurological disease that ultimately destroys the function of the central nervous system. In time, depending on the completely random nature of the disease progression, it may well leave her being unable to speak coherently, she may have to be tube fed because her ability to swallow may be totally impaired, she may have to be catheterised and have a colostomy to deal with dual incontinence, and she may lose the use of her legs and arms, may lose her sight or just about anything that is a function of the central nervous sytem...which is just about everything..

She is already reduced to being in a wheelchair full time, needs to have her food cut up for her because she can't use her hands properly and has some speech and cognitive issues that are typical of MS. The secondary progressive stage of the illness means that she no longer has periods of remission and, basically, it's all downhill from here - and some of the other symptoms described above are already starting to manifest themselves.

Outwardly, people with advanced stages of MS will look pretty much like Professor Stephen Hawking. He has Motor Neurone disease, which is a completely different thing, but the outward effects look pretty much the same...except that MS also impairs cognitive function.

We are both in our mid 50's. I work as a programme manager for a multinational, before my wife was diagnised and had to give up work because of her condition she was a paliative care nurse helping people with terminal conditions (including MS) to die with dignity. WE are not stoners.

And yet, canabinoids are reputedly very good at alleviating the constant neurological pain, cramps and muscle spasms that MS engenders, so we tried it a year or rwo ago on her birthday.

My wife has never smoked cigarettes and found smoking weed very difficult. I dabbled with Marijuana a couple of times in student days but left it alone for 30 plus years, so it wasn't easy....I couldn't even remember how to skin up properly.

Eventually, after a lot of inept floundering, we both managed to get moderately stoned and enjoyed one of the first evenings in years where we were both able to giggle like lunatics - just some brief respite from dealing with the relentless daily grind of dealing with a progressive, crippling deisease

That seems pretty positive to me.

We won't be making a habit of it, and haven't repeated the experience but it was fun while it lasted.

Wow. That's a powerful story. Very best wishes. And fire up the bong

 

[Schlyder]

I agree however the op didnt start this thread for enlightenment. Their mind is made up. The purpose is to practice rebutting the counter arguments you all are presenting. Most of you are wasting your time here.

Op i realize you have a job to do but at least be open to learning things you may not fully understand. Opinions are not necessarily facts.

Yes, I agree. He be trollin'. He's not looking for enlightenment. He's practicing getting his propaganda on.

If I had kids, I'd be more concerned about them having teachers like the OP.