Can you read music? Do you think it important?

[Clef_de_fa]

What if the mistake in the recording sounds better than the score?
What if the mistake in the recording becomes the accepted way to play it and what people want to hear because that is what they are most familiar with?

Invalid Link Removed

But you still play the wrong thing, you didn't play what the composer really had in mind.

Being familliar with something doesn't make it right. You can do something the wrong way your whole life... then the day you discovered that you did it wrong and the original way is much better ... or the way the original is, it makes so much more sense, now you finally get what the composer intention was ...

Also the article is interesting, but I think that way he says that classical music is just about smug just make me sick. It is a more sophisticated crowed that's for sure and maybe USA have a hard time with a style of music that comes from their ancestor. Classical music is just not in the blood of the American ... it is too european I think. Too linked to all they escaped with the Declaration of Indenpendance.

Since rock n roll, it seems to be cool to be musically uneducated and reject any formal education that classically trained musician strive for.

 

[topo morto]

People just give too much attention to a recording, like it is the only way of doing it. If you don't go out of tune at X moment you just destroy the feel. Unce upon a time the only to pass music to someone else was to give him/her a score. It must have been wounderful ... everyone in the music world was at least able to read music ...

The thing is ... what if the recording had a mistake ? the only people who would play that music correcly would be those who can read. Not the guy that think his ear are golden but infact he didn't hear the right thing. ( which happen a lot on youtube cover ).

You seem to imply that the only thing one could do with a recording would be to attempt to follow it slavishly - but of course you can analyse it in any way you like, and take that information and turn it back into a performance however you like. That's just as wonderful as taking a score and turning it into a performance.

What information wouldn't be written on a score ???

A great many things. A couple of examples - there's often not a lot of information on how to recreate specific timbres. There's often also a shortage of detailed timing information.

What you are saying is : for you the accent is as important as the actual word and note s/he sings ?

Of course, else we'd have Gallagher singing Nessun Dorma, and Pavarotti singing Cigarettes and Alcohol.

 

[topo morto]

Since rock n roll, it seems to be cool to be musically uneducated and reject any formal education that classically trained musician strive for.

That seems a sad way to look at the last 60 years of music history, which has been marked by an explosion of new styles, fusions of disparate musical cultures, new technologies. The only downside is, there's now so much to choose from that you can't possibly learn it all...

 

[topo morto]

But you still play the wrong thing, you didn't play what the composer really had in mind.

Being familliar with something doesn't make it right. You can do something the wrong way your whole life... then the day you discovered that you did it wrong and the original way is much better ... or the way the original is, it makes so much more sense, now you finally get what the composer intention was ...

I can understand the attraction of feeling a link with the composer of a piece, and what they intended.

Can you understand the value of a sound that the listener finds beautiful, no matter how it came about?

 

[Clef_de_fa]

You seem to imply that the only thing one could do with a recording would be to attempt to follow it slavishly - but of course you can analyse it in any way you like, and take that information and turn it back into a performance however you like. That's just as wonderful as taking a score and turning it into a performance.

But you are heavily influanced by what you heard. If you didn't heard any performance of it, would you turn it the same way ? I think not.

A great many things. A couple of examples - there's often not a lot of information on how to recreate specific timbres. There's often also a shortage of detailed timing information.

They have created a way to write rythm to the 64th of a Whole note. I think it is enough to be sure every instruments on the score will play at the right time.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

That seems a sad way to look at the last 60 years of music history, which has been marked by an explosion of new styles, fusions of disparate musical cultures, new technologies. The only downside is, there's now so much to choose from that you can't possibly learn it all...

In 60 years we went from the highly sofisticated language of Jazz and the exploration of classical composer to Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber and K-pop/J-pop... I think it went down hill very fast.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

I can understand the attraction of feeling a link with the composer of a piece, and what they intended.

Can you understand the value of a sound that the listener finds beautiful, no matter how it came about?

Yes I do. But I also hear what the notes being played, which can be recreated on any instrument and be as insteresting. I get that sometime ti can lost it's impact if it done with another instrument but still ... to me the combination of melody and harmony is the key of that beautiful sound not so much the object with which it was made.

 

[topo morto]

But you are heavily influanced by what you heard. If you didn't heard any performance of it, would you turn it the same way ? I think not.

True, but that's neither a good thing nor a bad thing - just different.

They have created a way to write rythm to the 64th of a Whole note. I think it is enough to be sure every instruments on the score will play at the right time.

Many who work with beat-driven music for a living would disagree - the old MIDI sequencers could do 96 ppqn (or a 384th of a whole note) and they were widely seen as deficient in that respect.

 

[batmilk]

For me, the perfect compromise is tab notation with rhythmic notation as well, like you find with Songsterr and Guitar Pro.

I find it easy to identify patterns and intervals when I'm looking at a graphical representation of the fingerboard, and rhythmic notation is essential for telling you how to play the notes.

I think a lot of the hatred for tabs is only for this sort of thing:

|-----6--9--6--------6~-|-----6--9--6--------6-----9~-|
|---6---------6----6----|---6---------6----6----------|
|-7--------------7------|-7--------------7------------|
|-----------------------|-----------------------------|

Looking at the above gives absolutely no indication to how it's played, and it's essentially useless without carefully listening to the song first.

Edit: Just one more thing, some people will say that having the fingering positions written down for you is restrictive, but it's very easy to change it around. For example, I often practice the same tab in a number of different ways, playing the same note on different strings by adding or subtracting 5 from each note for example. Or play everything up an octave, just add 12. It's easy to do it without having to think too much

I used to be able to read treble clef well, but never learnt bass clef. I think if the tabs have good rhythmic notation then there is hardly a disadvantage, apart from maybe being able to communicate this to other musicians who can read bass clef.

 

[topo morto]

In 60 years we went from the highly sofisticated language of Jazz and the exploration of classical composer to Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber and K-pop/J-pop... I think it went down hill very fast.

Possibly you could have mentioned a few different genres/artists and made the hill seem to go the other way?

Jazz tends to work with sophisticated chords, but simple timbres on the level of an individual note. On the other hand these days you can generate complex sounds where a couple of notes played at the same time have (to me) the same amount of harmonic intrigue as a whole jazz chord progression. Is that better? Again, no, just different.

 

[Johnny Roots]

For me, the perfect compromise is tab notation with rhythmic notation as well, like you find with Songsterr and Guitar Pro.

I find it easy to identify patterns and intervals when I'm looking at a graphical representation of the fingerboard, and rhythmic notation is essential for telling you how to play the notes.

I think a lot of the hatred for tabs is only for this sort of thing:

|-----6--9--6--------6~-|-----6--9--6--------6-----9~-|
|---6---------6----6----|---6---------6----6----------|
|-7--------------7------|-7--------------7------------|
|-----------------------|-----------------------------|

Looking at the above gives absolutely no indication to how it's played, and it's essentially useless without carefully listening to the song first.

Edit: Just one more thing, some people will say that having the fingering positions written down for you is restrictive, but it's very easy to change it around. For example, I often practice the same tab in a number of different ways, playing the same note on different strings by adding or subtracting 5 from each note for example. Or play everything up an octave, just add 12. It's easy to do it without having to think too much

I used to be able to read treble clef well, but never learnt bass clef. I think if the tabs have good rhythmic notation then there is hardly a disadvantage, apart from maybe being able to communicate this to other musicians who can read bass clef.

yikes

How do you read tab when you are gazing at your shoes and making up new genre names?

 

[batmilk]

yikes

How do you read tab when you are gazing at your shoes and making up new genre names?

You mad cos I'm stylin on you?

 

[JimmyM]

For me, the perfect compromise is tab notation with rhythmic notation as well, like you find with Songsterr and Guitar Pro.

But that requires knowing how to read rhythmic notation, so if you already have to go through that learning curve, it takes very little extra effort to learn the notes on the staff.

I used to be able to read treble clef well, but never learnt bass clef. I think if the tabs have good rhythmic notation then there is hardly a disadvantage, apart from maybe being able to communicate this to other musicians who can read

Exactly. Communicating with other musicians who can read is paramount for me and all the musicians I work with, especially since I write most of our horn arrangements.

(yes, I know I edited off the words "bass clef", but most musicians I know who can read treble can also read bass)

 

[Waterpilot]

I can only read a little bit but feel as if it's important. One of these days...

 

[Aussie Player]

Since rock n roll, it seems to be cool to be musically uneducated and reject any formal education that classically trained musician strive for.[/QUOTE]

That was the whole point of rock & roll. Anyone could pick up a guitar and have a go.

It was the music of the youth of the day. You played what you wanted your way.

 

[Aussie Player]

Let me get this straight...you turned down work???

Rule number one of showbiz is if someone asks you if you do something, always say "yes" and then develop the skill as quick as you can if you don't already have it.

Seriously.

Anyway, as other people have said on here, your entire premise is based on a fallacy where you believe that reading takes your own creativity out of the equation. Only people who don't read believe that. Never once heard a reader say he/she regretted learning it or felt creatively stifled because of it.

Here is what I actually said compared to what you interpreted broken into points but....unedited:

"I learned, which really just means I went to lessions for the first few years but my lessons always began with my teacher asking me to warm up while he got a coffee.
One day I played Badge from Cream. He asked me how I did it and wanted me to play it again for him.
I never had another lesson.

The reason he asked me to show him what I did was because Jack Bruce is a classically trained cello player who plays a bass the same way. When he plays Badge, he drops his 1st finger down the D string and plays the end B octave drop with open strings.....I don't. I play closed strings in the one position on the 9th fret and run down the G-D-A-E string ending on the B (7th fret)
It "is" a different way to play it.

A few years later I was recording a single in EMI and the drummer and I were offered studio work because we were so tight. We both declined because we couldn't read.

We were young guys in our 20's, knew better than our elders which was mandatory in the 70's, and wanted to be rock stars like our idols. The idea of playing other people music was of no interest anyway.

My point is that I am me because I can't read. I feel my bass lines. They are me and I always get compliments so I know I am ok.

Never stated as a preference, superiority, condescending statement, or as a slur upon those that can read. It was a simple statement of fact, that if I can't read, my playing, feel and style is a product of not being influenced by reading, not at any point again, stated as a recommendation, or slur, against reading or others who could read.

What are your thoughts?"

An honest human interest request, nothing more to it.

Carry on.

 

[boristhespider9]

@Aussie Player: You should have probably jumped at the opportunity for Studio Work. Many early Studio Musicians (Joe Osborne, for example) learned to read Electric Bass "on the job" and since it was a new instrument you could edit, change and generally inject a lot of your personal approach, which is what the Producer at EMI heard.
Personally, for me it's a mix. I learned and developed a style from listening to and emulating Bassists I liked, but Jack Bruce talked about Bach so I started looking at Bach's Cello Suites, Stanley Clarke talked about John Coltrane so I started looking at Coltrane transcriptions and Jaco played Donna Lee so I studied a lot of Charlie Parker's melodies and solos. I certainly couldn't have learned all of that by ear-I'm not that good!
I wouldn't have had the career I have had without being able to read, simply stated.

Maybe I missed it or haven't gotten to it yet, but I'd love if your TMBG had a comprehensive section and intructions on how to read starting from scratch and then taking it to more advanced forms. The other supposed reading books I have seem to have gaps or assume one knows more than they do.

If it's in TMBG, can you direct me to it? Thanks.

 

[Roy Vogt]

A few years later I was recording a single in EMI and the drummer and I were offered studio work because we were so tight. We both declined because we couldn't read.

We were young guys in our 20's, knew better than our elders which was mandatory in the 70's, and wanted to be rock stars like our idols. The idea of playing other people music was of no interest anyway.

My point is that I am me because I can't read. I feel my bass lines. They are me and I always get compliments so I know I am ok.

A couple of questions:
Do you still work in the Biz or do you make your money elsewhere?
Would you still be you if you knew what the dots on the page meant?
I'm with you in that I had a turn at the Rock Star Lottery.

FWIW, I'm the only one in these videos still working in the Music side of things after 24 years. I think being able to function in a lot of formats and do a lot of things helped out. Glad I had the experience, but glad I had the skills to keep going because I had no plan B.....

 

[Roy Vogt]

Maybe I missed it or haven't gotten to it yet, but I'd love if your TMBG had a comprehensive section and intructions on how to read starting from scratch and then taking it to more advanced forms. The other supposed reading books I have seem to have gaps or assume one knows more than they do.

If it's in TMBG, can you direct me to it? Thanks.

It totally does! I made it as user friendly as I could. Check out our Youtube Channel:

 

[jason weatherby]

Ability to read is great, but the score is still just a guide. If you can't feel it it will be mechanical and not music. Still very worth it learn to read but it's not the end-all or be-all.