Can you read music? Do you think it important?

[hrodbert696]

I think that it would probably be more accurate to say that they couldn't improvise or play by ear. That is not the same as being unable to play with feel.

Yes, true. I was just trying to keep the wording consistent. They did play with feeling. But they couldn't "feel" their way through a song.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

I will concede that reading is becoming increasingly irrelevant outside of classical circles.

But the only reason I don't get to read very much any more, is because so many of the musicians of this generation are plumb ignorant. And I find the situation sad.

There. I've said it.

I get by in a world where there are no charts any more, because of the ear training and improvisation skills that I learned as a jazz musician- AFTER I learned to read.

But I hate the time we waste in rehearsal, and I especially hate the lost flow and creativity.

That's right, LOST.

When I was younger, a band would run through a new chart once (10 minutes, tops). The rest of the session would be devoted to feel, dynamics, fills, etc.

Nowadays, the whole rehearsal is devoted to figuring out what the $&@?!! the missing chords are on the chord sheet, where the repeats are, etc. No time left at the end of the night to build our own arrangement, or to simply jam...

And after wasting hours of our lives on pitiful details every friggin' week, we still hit the stage tentative and poorly unprepared.

The choice is to spend a few months learning to read, or spend the rest if you life spinning your wheels when it comes to efficient musical communication.

How can anyone who isn't dyslexic NOT have the time to learn how to read?

 

[steve_rolfeca]

I also find all the negative comments about reading bizarre to the extreme. They seem to make a religion out of ignorance.

Every great poet I've ever heard of, could read the written word.

Ditto for painters and sculptors who've been to art school. How come learning the basic vocabulary of their art form didn't stifle their creativity, and turn them into soulless drones?

And lets not forget that up until relatively recently, most western countries included sight reading in the music programs of their public schools. How come so many of the greats from the 60's and 70's weren't ruined by that early exposure to conventional notation?

 

[lfmn16]

Well, I think that he is saying that there is a downside in that the time invested in learning to read could be used more productively in another endeavor if the player isn't going to use the skill of reading.

If someone learns to read, they will learn to use it. I play in an old school metal band and actually write out some of the more complex, or hard to remember, bass lines that I want to play note for note. It saves me a ton of time.

Not that I'm a great reader, but I like to pull out some of my old books that I used when I studied music years ago and play some of the classical pieces on electric bass, just for fun.

If you learn to read, you'll use the skill.

 

[lfmn16]

I also find all the negative comments about reading bizarre to the extreme. They seem to make a religion out of ignorance.

Not to get too sidetracked, but the same thing happens with technique and theory. If your goal is to become a better player, I don't understand why anyone would try to develop their own method for becoming great when there are so many proven paths to success.

Learn the rules, then break them for a reason, not out of ignorance. If knowledge limits your playing, you are not applying the knowledge correctly.

 

[MrLenny1]

I have been reading & playing thru Bach etudes for Bass.
Great stuff, really helping my fingering & overall hand strength.
Playing positions that I never touch on playing Rock.
The Edouard Nanny Method Book straightened out my sorry ass
years ago.

 

[topo morto]

I will concede that reading is becoming increasingly irrelevant outside of classical circles.

But the only reason I don't get to read very much any more, is because so many of the musicians of this generation are plumb ignorant. And I find the situation sad.

There. I've said it.

I get by in a world where there are no charts any more, because of the ear training and improvisation skills that I learned as a jazz musician- AFTER I learned to read.

But I hate the time we waste in rehearsal, and I especially hate the lost flow and creativity.

That's right, LOST.

When I was younger, a band would run through a new chart once (10 minutes, tops). The rest of the session would be devoted to feel, dynamics, fills, etc.

Nowadays, the whole rehearsal is devoted to figuring out what the $&@?!! the missing chords are on the chord sheet, where the repeats are, etc. No time left at the end of the night to build our own arrangement, or to simply jam...

And after wasting hours of our lives on pitiful details every friggin' week, we still hit the stage tentative and poorly unprepared.

The choice is to spend a few months learning to read, or spend the rest if you life spinning your wheels when it comes to efficient musical communication.

If you are in a situation where you have to play from charts or scores, then yeah, you should learn to read them - no question! But not every bass-playing situation is like that.

How can anyone who isn't dyslexic NOT have the time to learn how to read?

I also find all the negative comments about reading bizarre to the extreme. They seem to make a religion out of ignorance.

Everyone has 24 hours in their day; it comes down to cost/benefit.

 

[topo morto]

Ditto for painters and sculptors who've been to art school.

There isn't, as far as I am aware, a language of notation for how to make a sculpture*, and I think if there was it would be rather restrictive and soon become out of date (as, you might argue, has happened somewhat to western musical notation). You can instead just deal in terms of concrete forms, and now that recording is cheap and easy, we can do similar things with music.

*I know you weren't suggesting there is, just making a comparison.

 

[topo morto]

If your goal is to become a better player, I don't understand why anyone would try to develop their own method for becoming great when there are so many proven paths to success.

Learn the rules, then break them for a reason, not out of ignorance.

Everyone's idea of 'success' will be different. There is music being made now that there was not a proven path to 50 years ago.

From my own experience, I tried the 'theory' route before striking out on my own. But a lot of what teachers and books had to say did not seem to relate to the music I was interested in. Now I'm older and a bit wiser, I can better recognise what bits of what is usually taught as theory are genuinely fundamental, what bits are specific to certain styles, and what bits are historical oddities.

 

[Roy Vogt]

There isn't, as far as I am aware, a language of notation for how to make a sculpture*, and I think if there was it would be rather restrictive and soon become out of date (as, you might argue, has happened somewhat to western musical notation). You can instead just deal in terms of concrete forms, and now that recording is cheap and easy, we can do similar things with music.

*I know you weren't suggesting there is, just making a comparison.

No, nor is there a way to notate a visual art like painting or multimedia. What there is is an established tradition (broken from time to time by a Van Gogh, a Da Vinci, a Picasso or a Pollock et. al. that heralds a new trend) that creates an established literature that the Artist or Art Student studies. The problem with always accessing recordings is that the Musician is always imitating a performance at some level, whereas when I play a Bach Cello Suite on Electric Bass I'm regarding the notes and not trying to emulate Yo Yo Ma or Edgar Meyer.
To be fair, in a culture where you have Squarepusher and DeadMau5 and DJ/Hip Hop Culture the recording can be used to reference, sample, morph and create new things. As you said, though, Western Harmony works through a lot of familiar tradition that's accessed through studying Music Theory (which you have to be able to read Music to access at any depth, IMO) much like the example of the Art Tradition.

 

[topo morto]

The problem with always accessing recordings is that the Musician is always imitating a performance at some level, whereas when I play a Bach Cello Suite on Electric Bass I'm regarding the notes and not trying to emulate Yo Yo Ma or Edgar Meyer.

Having a piece represented as sequences of notes certainly can be helpful - but again, in other situations, it could be the information that's missing on a score (as compared to a recording) that's a problem.

As you said, though, Western Harmony works through a lot of familiar tradition that's accessed through studying Music Theory (which you have to be able to read Music to access at any depth, IMO) much like the example of the Art Tradition.

Agreed (although many of my favourite harmonies are on pieces that I wouldn't think have been notated, and their effect is often somewhat tied in to the particular (often synthetic) timbres used, so I've had to 'ear' them.)

But if referencing tradition isn't a personal goal, you can consider harmony from the point of view of deeper principles - it's all just frequency ratios at the end of the day.

 

[punkjazzben]

I am going to unlearn reading. You guys have convinced me.

 

[Roy Vogt]

I am going to unlearn reading. You guys have convinced me.

Good! More work for me! Oh, wait, I'll have to move to Australia! Darn!

 

[topo morto]

Good! More work for me! Oh, wait, I'll have to move to Australia! Darn!

You know they have the score the other way up there, right?

 

[punkjazzben]

You know they have the score the other way up there, right?

I will come back and respond to this more fully, but I'm late for work and the kangaroo is getting impatient.

 

[topo morto]

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Having a piece represented as sequences of notes certainly can be helpful - but again, in other situations, it could be the information that's missing on a score (as compared to a recording) that's a problem.



Agreed (although many of my favourite harmonies are on pieces that I wouldn't think have been notated, and their effect is often somewhat tied in to the particular (often synthetic) timbres used, so I've had to 'ear' them.)

But if referencing tradition isn't a personal goal, you can consider harmony from the point of view of deeper principles - it's all just frequency ratios at the end of the day.

What information wouldn't be written on a score ???

What you are saying is : for you the accent is as important as the actual word and note s/he sings ?

I've heard many recording of Chromatics Fantasy after I heard the version by Jaco. All of them just sounded a blurry of note without any soul, any meaning. Then I heard Glen Gould play it ... it was wounderful, he found a melody inside it. I just prove that if your knowledge of music is high enough you can put your soul into it and discovers a beautiful melody where someone else would play it differently and give it a different vibe.

But all of that isn't as important as the actual music. It isn't even tied to the instrument being used or all the quirks and accent of a singer.

People just give too much attention to a recording, like it is the only way of doing it. If you don't go out of tune at X moment you just destroy the feel. Unce upon a time the only to pass music to someone else was to give him/her a score. It must have been wounderful ... everyone in the music world was at least able to read music ...

The thing is ... what if the recording had a mistake ? the only people who would play that music correcly would be those who can read. Not the guy that think his ear are golden but infact he didn't hear the right thing. ( which happen a lot on youtube cover ).

 

[ciudadmarron]

It depends on what you want out of it.

I'm an amateur, hobbyist - this isn't a livelihood for me; i'd imagine if it was not being able to read music would preclude me from a fair bit of work.

But it's certainly no hindrance to what I want to be able to do; and if anything, it even sets me free a bit.

I learned piano as a kid via the suzuki method which is essentially learning to play by ear. I learnt a bit of theory which is still there but I never used it enough to be able to sight read. But I'm a firm believer that that method has given me a skillset that is perfect for what I want to be able to do and enjoy doing. I only need to hear something once and can work it out very quickly; i can harmonise really well; and i can slot in and groove with no problem whatsoever.

If I could read it would make band practise easier in some respects because someone could drop a sheet in front of me with exactly what they wanted me to play; but they don't do that, they know there's no point (went through a couple of weeks of "this is b#" "whatever, just play me the chords and i'll do it) ; they know that if it's a cover i'll hit it pretty quickly and if it's an original i will come up with something good that fits neatly.

 

[mambo4]

Learning notation has improved my playing.
It might do the same for others.

 

[ciudadmarron]

What if the mistake in the recording sounds better than the score?
What if the mistake in the recording becomes the accepted way to play it and what people want to hear because that is what they are most familiar with?

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