Can You Tell The Difference??? ASH vs. ALDER

[M.R. Ogle]

I think it's a bit of a shame.

Instead of HONESTLY telling us to pick the differences, and telling us CORRECTLY what we were listening to, he jinked the experiment with false information from the get-go and then stood back and stated how only 14% of the respondents got it 100% correct. Bullhockey.

I see the poll at 63% got it all (or half) correct given the rigged choices in the poll.

You have proven nothing because you weren't playing straight ball. What a waste of everyone's time.

 

[BassyBill]

Who'd a thunk: a guy's honest attempt to shed light on a silly debate like body wood would grow to 11 pages and resort to the OP being threatened with banishment.

I'm off to a jam with my Rob Allen made of.... wait for it ...... KOA! Start the debate on that choice.

Nobody's actually been threatened with banishment in any important sense, but I see where you're coming from.

By the way, Rob told me he made your bass out of padauk and then just used a special trick only he knows to make it sound exactly like it's made from koa. I'd take that up with him if I were you. You've been swindled!

 

[BassyBill]

I think, more importantly it influenced what people were expecting to hear an I think there is an interesting "split" in the thread between those who understand why that is significant and those who don't.

Yeah - fair point. I think most folks get that, though. Nobody seems to be claiming that this is rigorous enough to pass muster in "New Scientist" or "Nature". In fact, the comment about people hearing what they expect is quite telling in itself, don't you think?

 

[fish slapper]

Nobody's actually been threatened with banishment in any important sense, but I see where you're coming from.

By the way, Rob told me he made your bass out of padauk and then just used a special trick only he knows to make it sound exactly like it's made from koa. I'd take that up with him if I were you. You've been swindled!

Actually it's apparent from my failure to get the correct answer in the poll that he used balsa. That would explain why its so light.

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

I think it's a bit of a shame.

Instead of HONESTLY telling us to pick the differences, and telling us CORRECTLY what we were listening to, he jinked the experiment with false information from the get-go and then stood back and stated how only 14% of the respondents got it 100% correct. Bullhockey.

I see the poll at 63% got it all (or half) correct given the rigged choices in the poll.

You have proven nothing because you weren't playing straight ball. What a waste of everyone's time.

Good lord. It's not like I rigged a Presidential election or something.

And if you notice, one of the available vote choices was "I can't hear any difference in the #2 clips". So the correct and accurate answer was available to select in the poll.

This just goes to show that people can imagine tone variations when in fact there are none.

 

[aborgman]

Have you guys ever come across cases where there are really noticeable differences in tone between bodies made of the same wood species? Genuine question asked out of curiosity.

Yes.

...and that is a big part of the issue with tonewoods in my mind - the variation among species causes huge mounts of overlap.

 

[mongo2]

the variation among species causes huge mounts of overlap.

My point exactly.

 

[M.R. Ogle]

No, it proves that if anyone took you at your word, they'd be set up for a fall.

I was, I KNEW the first one was ash, I guessed on the second pair... BECAUSE you stated there was a second ash sample in there

Worthless. Sorry. I'm with JohnK.

 

[Jim C]

Dan, you gave us false information to begin with "I recorded two tracks with each bass" then you gave us constricted parameters in your poll, none of which were the "correct" choice.

Most people picked out the ash bodied 1-A, but (myself included) were just searching for another track to fulfil your original statement that there were "two of each".

Good one, you fooled us. .

Disagree
I originaly thought that he gave the answer away.
Why would you add the last two choices unless you had to?
It didn't affect my vote though as I honestly thought that 1a and 2a were the same bass.

So, if you agree that there was a correct answer to choose from, then 86% of the voters got it WRONG.
In my mind that disproves the theory that wood species alone makes for a large difference in tone.

Hey Dan, what is the weight of each body and are they representative of what ships from Fender? That piece of information might be helpful for some. My assumption is that they are reasonably close in weight; did I at least get that right?

 

[narud]

This just goes to show that people can imagine tone variations when in fact there are none.

nah, you posted you that you played 2 different bass parts on each bass. i listened to the first clip and heard a pretty clear difference. i didnt even bother listening to the second clip and went looking for the option that would be my vote for what i heard (the poll was already closed). i suspect others probably did the same thing. if you played 2 different parts on each bass i didnt need to listen to the other one. seems like you threw that in there to get the answer you wanted.

 

[Marlat]

Yeah - fair point. I think most folks get that, though. Nobody seems to be claiming that this is rigorous enough to pass muster in "New Scientist" or "Nature". In fact, the comment about people hearing what they expect is quite telling in itself, don't you think?

Yes and no. I don't think it tells us much to run an experiment that confirms a well known effect (ie hearing a perceived difference when there is none if primed). However one thing the OP could clarify was whether tracks 2 a and b were the same recording or two different recordings. If they were different recording s then there may well be subtle tonal differences between the two tracks that people put down to body wood but which were actually playing technique etc. OTOH if they were the same track the the teat does demonstrate the effect we are discussing well.

 

[johnk_10]

OBKB, I mean no disrespect but I could care less about Leo and just the mention of you working with him as your qualification to trump others implies ego. Your experience is yours and that's fine. I'm just not buying into it. I'll spend my dollar on what I find true and not what I view as "marketing".

my mention of discussing the issue with Leo was not an attempt to trump other poeple's opinion. i was merely stating a fact. again, it has nothing to do with ego, and if you knew me, you'd know that. but if you want to keep saying it, that's you're prerogative.

i don't understand that if others have a different opinion than Dan's, they are somehow though of as insulting him. just because i can hear the difference in body woods, doesn't mean that everyone else has to. and i never 'market' my instruments in that manner. i just give people the info that i've found to hold true if they're going for a particular tone on an instrument, whether i'm building it or not.

 

[Jim C]

What a waste of everyone's time.

You're entitled to your opinion but in the 3 years I've been on this board, this is by far the most accurate test of wood species vs. tone yet.

Seems like the 14% have no problem with the testing medthodology.

If it bums you out, stop reading; had to do that myself just last week with the SVT thread.

 

[M.R. Ogle]

I check into this forum between rounds of sledding with the kids, it's bookmarked and I generally enjoy the posts on TB, the members here are very articulate and I learn a lot from the shared experience.

This thread, however was simply not one of them. I was trying to honestly play "tell the difference" (even though I know there is a difference) trusting that if I was fooled, I'd have a good laugh over it. Okay, let's play....

I was not fooled by the clips, I was fooled by the dishonest tester.

That p***** me off.

 

[BobKos]

I don't understand what the point of this was. I picked 1A ash 2A alder. Then I picked 1B alder 2B ... wait a minute. One has to be ash but they both sound like alder.

So I look at answers.

I get it. Dan's laughing at us. Ha ha. Funny trick. He's smarter than me.

I now won't buy a bass from you Dan. Ha ha back. You're not THAT much smarter than me.

 

[M.R. Ogle]

John-K has never lied to me... just sayin'....

 

[aborgman]

my mention of discussing the issue with Leo was not an attempt to trump other poeple's opinion. i was merely stating a fact. again, it has nothing to do with ego, and if you knew me, you'd know that. but if you want to keep saying it, that's you're prerogative.

It is without a doubt, whether intended or not, a perfect example of the classical logical fallacy of "appeal to authority"

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

I check into this forum between rounds of sledding with the kids, it's bookmarked and I generally enjoy the posts on TB, the members here are very articulate and I learn a lot from the shared experience.

This thread, however was simply not one of them. I was trying to honestly play "tell the difference" (even though I know there is a difference) trusting that if I was fooled, I'd have a good laugh over it. Okay, let's play....

I was not fooled by the clips, I was fooled by the dishonest tester.

That p***** me off.

Wow. Sounds like someone needs to relax a little bit. This is an internet forum about bass guitars. This isn't religion or politics.

Yeah, I was maybe a bit sneaky. But one of the points of this test (for me) was to find out how much of the "tone" thing is imagined. So I thought "Why not present 2 clips from the same bass, imply they are from different basses, and see if people claim to hear a difference that isn't there?" If people could honestly and accurately identify tone qualities, they would have said "The first clips sound different, but the second clips don't". I even provided that choice as an option in the poll!

But most people claimed to hear a difference in the clips from the same bass. The fact that I lead them to believe they were from different basses just goes to show how powerful the mind is. In fact, you could argue that the human brain has a bigger influence on tone than wood does! So again, the signifcance of wood has been diminished.

 

[JimiLL]

I was really looking forward to the results.... until i saw that little thingey goin on....

Great thread went to crap in one post

 

[JimiLL]

I don't understand what the point of this was. I picked 1A ash 2A alder. Then I picked 1B alder 2B ... wait a minute. One has to be ash but they both sound like alder.

So I look at answers.

I get it. Dan's laughing at us. Ha ha. Funny trick. He's smarter than me.

I now won't buy a bass from you Dan. Ha ha back. You're not THAT much smarter than me.

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