Can You Tell The Difference??? ASH vs. ALDER

[parsons]

I wish there would've been an option to choose "Note being played on low E string farts out and clips in recording and sounds horrible on all 4."

with that said, I could tell that only 1 was different.

 

[dvh]

IMO, maple and walnut sound pretty darn close to each other.

swamp ash (very lightweight) and hard ash (the dense heavy stuff) sound completely different. IIRC technically,they are of the same species, but grown in different environments (different growth rates and moisture content).

IME, heavy ash has much less resonance and makes for a much brighter sounding instrument with more sustain.

No. In forestry hard ash is Fraxinus americana (what baseball bats are made of). Swamp ash could be either F. pennsylvanica or F. nigra.

Not to be disrespectful but shouldn't a luthier be familiar with this knowledge?

 

[nutdog]

So which wood is better for a crucifixion, ash or alder?

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

Another way of looking at this - If your ears can be convinced that a bass sounds different by simply telling you that it does sound different, doesn't that negate 95% of this whole "tone" debate?

 

[JimiLL]

No. In forestry hard ash is Fraxinus americana (what baseball bats are made of). Swamp ash could be either F. pennsylvanica or F. nigra.

Not to be disrespectful but shouldn't a luthier be familiar with this knowledge?

Now your splitting hairs

 

[M.R. Ogle]

No it negates 95% of your test validity.

 

[dvh]

Now your splitting hairs

Well, he asked...

 

[younggun]

Wow. Sounds like someone needs to relax a little bit. This is an internet forum about bass guitars. This isn't religion or politics.

Yeah, I was maybe a bit sneaky. But one of the points of this test (for me) was to find out how much of the "tone" thing is imagined. So I thought "Why not present 2 clips from the same bass, imply they are from different basses, and see if people claim to hear a difference that isn't there?" If people could honestly and accurately identify tone qualities, they would have said "The first clips sound different, but the second clips don't". I even provided that choice as an option in the poll!

But most people claimed to hear a difference in the clips from the same bass. The fact that I lead them to believe they were from different basses just goes to show how powerful the mind is. In fact, you could argue that the human brain has a bigger influence on tone than wood does! So again, the signifcance of wood has been diminished.

The problem I have with what the OP is saying here, is that he seems to be making the leap from " 75 people couldn't tell the difference between MY recordings of MY 2 basses of just Ash and Alder" to "all woods don't make a difference in tone, its just in people's heads". The biggest problem being that he is making that assertion on a very limited (and not scientifically accurate) survey.
Not arguing one way or the other about tone woods in particular right now, but anyone can see the flawed logic in that type of over-reaching opinion. There would have to be a LOT more accurate and controlled testing to prove or disprove the theory that, all other factors being as equal, tone woods do not significantly effect the overall impact of tone on a listener's ears.

 

[BassyBill]

No it negates 95% of your test validity.

Can you please explain how you calculated the 95%? Let's all be sticklers for total rigour.

 

[BioDriver]

I'm a bit late to this and decided to give the clips a listen. I thought 1-A was ash and 1-B was alder in the first song but couldn't hear a difference in the second.

Lo and behold I was right.

Some people can hear the difference, some can't, some want to be able to so they pretend to, and some think there's no difference at all and look for other factors (pickups, strings, etc). No 2 pieces of wood are similar, let alone no 2 species. Each one has different densities, characteristics, tanins, and other organic compounds that all affect how it sounds compared to one another. They reverberate differently, something you can hear just by going to a lumber store and knocking on different wood species. IMO it's silly to think that the wood doesn't affect the tone.

 

[Batmensch]

No it negates 95% of your test validity.

No, it doesn't. It entirely validates the test as the point of it was how expectation influences perception.

 

[WoodyG3]

...
I'm off to a jam with my Rob Allen made of.... wait for it ...... KOA! Start the debate on that choice.

Koa sounds better than any other wood. Why else would I keep buying koa wood basses???

my mention of discussing the issue with Leo was not an attempt to trump other poeple's opinion. i was merely stating a fact..

I believe you, John. And, let's be realistic. Has anyone built more alder and ash basses than Fender? No. It's a good reference point.

...I get it. Dan's laughing at us. Ha ha. Funny trick. He's smarter than me.

I now won't buy a bass from you Dan. Ha ha back. You're not THAT much smarter than me.

Come on, man. Dan was having some fun trying to prove a point he believes in on a freaking Internet forum. It's all fun. I think he ruined the test by being sorta' sneaky, but I'd still buy a bass from him. Heck, I'd buy him a beer if he lived nearby.

No. In forestry hard ash is Fraxinus americana (what baseball bats are made of). Swamp ash could be either F. pennsylvanica or F. nigra.

Not to be disrespectful but shouldn't a luthier be familiar with this knowledge?

Not to be disrespectful, but I have a buddy who is a forestry major and has been a finish carpenter for 30 years. He didn't know the difference between swamp ash and "regular" ash when I asked him about it. He also mentioned that ash wood varies according to the climate it is grown in.

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

Total BS. compression will always mask the results of a direct comparison, especially in a bass's attack.

Ok, John. So in other words: "The subtle variations in tone between wood types can be completely erased by standard audio processing stages like compression and EQ."

Right?

But isn't your argument self-defeating??

Compression and EQ are almost always used in studio recording, and typically used by a soundman at a live gig. So if these commonplace processes can destroy any difference in tone between Alder, Ash, Walnut, etc., doesn't that prove that body wood has very little impact on tone?

Enlighten me.

 

[Swicked]

Dan wins at life, you guys are just butthurt

 

[Waterpilot]

In fact, the comment about people hearing what they expect is quite telling in itself, don't you think?

Yes! I think many of those who's belief's have been questioned and then attacking the method's are missing the point that we might just be hearing what we believe we want to hear.

The most ridiculous Post of the day

Fixed

 

[pasco jacorius]

For me it negates the body wood "tone" debate(You got me on this one lol ). But I'd be curious to hear the same test , with necks made of different woods/fingerboard. Like rosewood on maple vs ebony on wenge , or something like that. Or maybe the same bass but two different players. Some people told me that I sound the same way on any bass while I can really hear and feel differences . So there is probably more than woods behind that whole tone debate, also , there is the question of tone vs character . A bass can have a very aggressive character , yes it have a sweet , mellow tone when you want it to (i.e , right hand technique etc..) I know guys who play salsa with Warwicks and the next day they play metal with the exact same bass and it's like hearing another instrument. Also the character of the bass can depend on where the pu are located etc... It's a large debate .

 

[BassyBill]

Fixed

You know, I missed what was actually being claimed with that one on first glance. Extraordinary ears, there, what?

 

[nutdog]

Whatever anyone thinks about the methodology, it's obvious this took quite a bit of effort to produce. So thanks. Perhaps people wouldn't be upset if you had said there might be a placebo. But I inferred that from the answer choice.

Maybe next time you could put the tracks in stereo, with one bass in each ear, to negate the problem of having to listen to each clip at a different time.

 

[pasco jacorius]

ROFL !

 

[Swift713]

I thought A was ash and B was alder on the first pair of clips. I was more hesitant on the second but I still thought B was a bit warmer sounding. Coming in to this I was not expecting a very significant difference between the two.
I recently made a pretty big change in my bass' tone by loosening the truss rod about 1/4 turn, a bigger difference than I heard in those clips.