This is the same approach I use - when I started playing in a band I could never always hear the bass drum especially when we were playing live so now I tend to work off the snare and hi hat
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Can't hear my drummer's kick drum...
- Thread starter phayes1007
- Start date
Get him some brushes and hold a gun to the guitarists head until they turn down.
The quietest instrument establishes the maximum volume.
The quietest instrument establishes the maximum volume.
Since this happens at practice too, you can spend some time before or after practice figuring out what's wrong. Ask him to hit his kick alone. Play the full kit and walk behind to see and listen. If this only happened at shows, that would be tougher to resolve. This should be straight forward.
As a drummer I often have to play non-miked with 60-100 other musicians, and I have had to address this same issue. So having a kick that can be heard live is a major concern for me. Short of hitting the HGH to build huge muscles in my right leg, I have used a few strategies, some of which may seem a bit counter-intuitive:
1. Higher frequencies translate better than lower. When you think of a bass drum, you naturally think of the lower frequencies and often people think that's the solution to this problem. But some of those low frequencies' sound waves are actually so long that they offer nothing to you if you're right by the kit. This is where the high frequencies come into play: yes you need mostly bass/thump but it must be complemented by higher freqs that provide definition, too. A kick pad on the batter skin helps dramatically. What also helps is what many people advise against, which is...
2. Muffling. A kick drum full of laundry and a comforter is wack, but a totally empty kick becomes very boomy, loses definition and can become hard to hear, and not to mention can have a weird feel/response. IME a thin pillow, large towel, or a folded sheet that touches both heads up to about two or three inches above the shell provides enough muffling without deadening everything yet keeps the sound (and feel) "crisp".
3. Tuning. A kick drum tuned too high is going to sound choked. As mentioned before, JAW is pretty good although might be too slack for some applications (and requires frequent re-tuning). Less than JAW and you're going through skins like toilet paper...
4. Hole/front skin removal. It seems logical that removing the front skin or cutting a large hole in it improves projection but it makes the drum sound dead. Keeping the front skin intact is regarded by many to be optimal but it's not always practical so a 5-6" max hole, off center and about three inches from the edge, is best. Anything bigger than that, or closer to the center, and you may as well remove the skin completely.
TL;DR: Tell him to get a kickpad, put just enough muffling in there to touch a few inches of each head, tune it to just above wrinkle, and keep the front head on with a small, off-center hole.
1. Higher frequencies translate better than lower. When you think of a bass drum, you naturally think of the lower frequencies and often people think that's the solution to this problem. But some of those low frequencies' sound waves are actually so long that they offer nothing to you if you're right by the kit. This is where the high frequencies come into play: yes you need mostly bass/thump but it must be complemented by higher freqs that provide definition, too. A kick pad on the batter skin helps dramatically. What also helps is what many people advise against, which is...
2. Muffling. A kick drum full of laundry and a comforter is wack, but a totally empty kick becomes very boomy, loses definition and can become hard to hear, and not to mention can have a weird feel/response. IME a thin pillow, large towel, or a folded sheet that touches both heads up to about two or three inches above the shell provides enough muffling without deadening everything yet keeps the sound (and feel) "crisp".
3. Tuning. A kick drum tuned too high is going to sound choked. As mentioned before, JAW is pretty good although might be too slack for some applications (and requires frequent re-tuning). Less than JAW and you're going through skins like toilet paper...
4. Hole/front skin removal. It seems logical that removing the front skin or cutting a large hole in it improves projection but it makes the drum sound dead. Keeping the front skin intact is regarded by many to be optimal but it's not always practical so a 5-6" max hole, off center and about three inches from the edge, is best. Anything bigger than that, or closer to the center, and you may as well remove the skin completely.
TL;DR: Tell him to get a kickpad, put just enough muffling in there to touch a few inches of each head, tune it to just above wrinkle, and keep the front head on with a small, off-center hole.
OP-
The first thing to think about is the overall volume of the band. If everyone else is too loud, the kick is gone without running it through the PA/monitors.
The other thing, as a few of the drummers have pointed out, is the kick setup itself. If you play metal, or your drummer has a metal background, he may be killing his own kick sound. In the late 80s and early 90s, it became fashionable for heavy drummers to use a real "clicky" kind of kick sound, tuned super high and choked with padding in the drum. This makes the action very fast for double kick playing, and as most guys were ditching the second kick in those days, the double beater/single drum approach called for tight action. This also allowed the kick to cut through the wash of overdriven guitars that metal had become. Guys who grew up on that kind of music aim for that sound.
Unfortunately it sounds like a flat basketball bouncing off concrete. Sure makes it hard to hear in a live room, and studio engineers hate it. I've had to fix more kick drum sounds via EQ and triggers than anything else because of this.
Take a look at the kick and see if there are blankets or anything in the drum. Ask the drummer if he'd be willing to take them out. Then find out if his heads are tuned up high. You might want the room head at least to be loosened a bit.
Problem: Drummer might like it as it is. Asking him to change the kick setup might be like asking a bass player to switch from rounds to flats. Some of these guys think that choked off kick sound is good.
The first thing to think about is the overall volume of the band. If everyone else is too loud, the kick is gone without running it through the PA/monitors.
The other thing, as a few of the drummers have pointed out, is the kick setup itself. If you play metal, or your drummer has a metal background, he may be killing his own kick sound. In the late 80s and early 90s, it became fashionable for heavy drummers to use a real "clicky" kind of kick sound, tuned super high and choked with padding in the drum. This makes the action very fast for double kick playing, and as most guys were ditching the second kick in those days, the double beater/single drum approach called for tight action. This also allowed the kick to cut through the wash of overdriven guitars that metal had become. Guys who grew up on that kind of music aim for that sound.
Unfortunately it sounds like a flat basketball bouncing off concrete. Sure makes it hard to hear in a live room, and studio engineers hate it. I've had to fix more kick drum sounds via EQ and triggers than anything else because of this.
Take a look at the kick and see if there are blankets or anything in the drum. Ask the drummer if he'd be willing to take them out. Then find out if his heads are tuned up high. You might want the room head at least to be loosened a bit.
Problem: Drummer might like it as it is. Asking him to change the kick setup might be like asking a bass player to switch from rounds to flats. Some of these guys think that choked off kick sound is good.
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that´s the biggest nonsense i read in a while. Your tom and snare sound at your own seat consists of "paf" only, without any bottom end? And how to reproduce bass with in-ear monitoring then?
Proximity effect on microphones boosts the low end when you get as close to the source as possible.
Your bass amp works very well when you are standing right in front of it.
...should be enough examples by now.
Length of sound waves is the distance between the first wave and the following. That´s all. Utilized in sound-proofing to calculate the thickness of absorbing material, but not to determine the lowest frequency allowed in a specific room.
good advice though. Danmar Metal kick pads and hard beaters give lots of click. Sound changes a lot though, you might hate it
is his bass drum full of 'stuff' ... ?? pillow , blanket .. ?? what type of beater does he use ... felt , rubber , wood , ..?? tuning would help for sure ... was size is it ... ?? does he have felt strips on the head .. ?
has he ever tried a Danmar pad ( sp ? ) helps with the attack part of the hit ... does he have both heads on .. ?? does he have a hole cut in the front head for a mic .. ? have you ever sat behind his kit and smacked the bass drum a few times .. ?? then you can look at the bass drum pedal ... are the springs to tight .. is the pedal and it's parts all correctly put together .. ?? off the top of my head ...
has he ever tried a Danmar pad ( sp ? ) helps with the attack part of the hit ... does he have both heads on .. ?? does he have a hole cut in the front head for a mic .. ? have you ever sat behind his kit and smacked the bass drum a few times .. ?? then you can look at the bass drum pedal ... are the springs to tight .. is the pedal and it's parts all correctly put together .. ?? off the top of my head ...
I have had an opportunity to do sound for about 30-50 different bands over the past two years or so - and found that many drummers have a decent handle, while some hit WAY to hard and some hit really light. most seem to tune just fine - and all bitch about each others tuning if its a common kit with 2-3 bands on a show (like a benefit or something).
In all of that - I have worked with two drummers whos ckick was so tight - I could do NOTHING for them. NOTHING
That said - if you are without monitors, and the kick is lost, I ask how loud are are you guys playing and is he realistically keeping up in that mix?
you have probably heard the term "play to the room". If you have limited equipment available - play at levels that accommodate the quietest instruments? Just a thought.
+1
Sounds like any (or a combination of any) of the following:
- cruddy drummer. Bashers with sticks don't always have heavy feet.
- bad kick drum/ bad kick tuning (more often than not, it's so loose the fundamental of the head is below what the drum wants, or even what you can hear)
- too much kick muffling
- not enough beater attack
- intact front head on a kick that should be ported/open
To check for feather footing, during practice, put your foot on the front hoop of the kick to see if he's got any oomph to his foot. If not, get a new drummer, there's little you can do.
Unless you guys are stupid loud, you should be able to hear a kick in practice. Having been in stupid loud bands, sometimes it can be necessary to mic a kick in practice. But don't do that. It's really stupid loud.
Fat Steve
The poodle bites, the poodle chews it.
OP, is this just in the room while rehearsing/practicing, or is it when you're playing live at a venue?
Some guys just have a soft foot. I personally always prefer to anchor to the backbeat, feel the subdivisions from the cymbals, and provide my own big version of "1" than try to chase the kick drum around, unless there is a specific part. And even then, I learn the part, play the part, but still lock into the snare and hi-hats/ride. If the drummer is doing his job we'll be together on the part.
Gaolee
Official leathers tester and crash dummy
I have played with a number of drummers who have minimal kick drum sound. If they have good time, then locking in is pretty straight forward even if you can't hear the kick drum.
Honestly, maybe he just is a horrible drummer. I have had the privilege to play with a few really great drummers and definitely it was possible to hear the kick drum with them. A great drummer is a gift let me tell you. If you don't have a great or even good drummer but instead have a mediocre to horrible one then the bass really needs to help hold it together, but really if the drummer is super horrible there's not a chance in a dozen months of Sundays the band will be tight.
I always saw it this way as well. And to be honest, I'm not sure I can say that I ever 'heard' a bass drum. 'Feel' it? Absolutely. But that aside. I always considered the bassist as the one who controls where beats 1 & 3 sit, and the drummer, 2 & 4. When you get that give and take going with a good drummer, you can really drill down deep into a groove.
One of my bands drummers can't/doesn't tune his drums. I run sound for that band and constantly get bitched at about his kick from everyone but him. It sounds hollow, has zero attack and has a horrible resonance around 50hz. He finally put a tiny little sheet in it but it's no better. A couple months ago his front head exploded and between sets he said that at least he had gotten 9 years out of it. It's even worse with the new head. What a waste of a perfectly good Audix D6 and my Qsc Kw181 subwoofer.
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Maybe instead of wishing and hoping for them you should start working for them.
I know I'm a cranky old man, but when I was 16 the guitarist and I worked at a pancake house to make money for equipment. I forget what the other guys did, but it was all minimum wage work - $1.85 an hour. I had to bus a lot of tables, but we bought entry level pro equipment that allowed us to sound good and pretty soon we made enough to all quit our jobs. I was the youngest guy in the band and back then the clubs turned a blind eye to minors playing in bars, at least the clubs I played.
Now get off my lawn and go get a job!
..
Yeah, but back when you cranky old men were youngsters roaming the still-cooling Earth, musicians could actually make decent money playing gigs—so saving to put your gigging gear together made some kind of economic sense.
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