Car Subwoofer for a Low-End Cab?

[Ccarson26]

OP, car subs are optimized for sealed boxes and cabin gain inside the vehicle.
This means they are choosing Small+Low from the Small-Low-Loud parameters.
You can pick any two, but not all in the same box.

As shown above, many response curves are spiked... i.e. "one note wonders".
Trying to use a car sub higher than 100 Hz is fruitless.

The Eminence LAB12 subwoofer falls into this category, and I own several along with a number of car subs.
They are very useful below 100 Hz for a solo keyboard that produces a true C0 frequency.
For a bassist, this is a mud-maker in a live environment.
Biamping is mandatory.

I am not looking to re-create a bass guitar cabinet.. I love my Ampegs.. I am looking to add some power in the ~80 Hz and below area..

 

[Ccarson26]

Doesn't the 'DI' ouput from an amp head contain the same processed signal as what is coming into the front ofthe amp as manipulated by whatever pedals you have inline between your bass guitar and the front amp input? I never used it before, never had a need. I specifically said hi-pass here so as to not feed the sub speaker anything lower than 31hz or whatever hz I dial it in at.

Yes, exactly.. My Mesa Titan V12 has a balanced XLR output that comes directly off the preamp signal.. This would be the signal chain starting point that goes into the crossover, maybe some modulation, and into the Crown XLS 2500..

 

[agedhorse]

I have listened to many PA subs.. I have listened to every one possible in my area.. Local Guitar Center.. Local pro audio store (selling amps/speakers/mics/etc.) Local concerts.. DJ parties.. For many years.. and I have not found anything that delivers alot of clean powerful lows.. They sound thin on an open B-string for example.. And no, I am not intending to use car amplifiers.. I would use my Crown XLS 2500 as a starting point for power.. After speaking with many of the engineers of the car audio subs.. They are capable of handling much more power when used in a PA environment due to the voltage increase.. When using an amp running off 120 or even 240 volts, you can deliver much more stable power than a 12 volt system can provide.. Using a proper active crossover to achieve the freq range needed, and yes the enclosure needs to be custom built of course.. And yes many people laugh at this idea and say it will never work.. but technically speaking, I don't see why it won't work.. The enclosure is the most important piece to this puzzle IMO.. That and I may need a larger amp.. The QSC PLD 4.5 is at the top of the list..

The information you have received is completely incorrect. A larger amp will only make the problems worse.

You simply don’t know what you don’t know. Much more knowledgeable folks here have been trying to help you understand but you are ignoring reality in favor of the mythologies perpetuated by the car audio industry and community.

 

[6thplanet]

I'd have to disagree on the 120 vs 12 volt amplifier concern. Any car audio amplifier worth a crap has a power supply capable of supporting it's output power. Plenty of 1K+ car audio amps out there, just need the current capabilities to support it.
As for this car sub issue....there are some pretty heavy duty drivers out there. Problem is your use of them dictates wether or not it's a feasible journey.

 

[Redbrangus]

Well, I will acknowledge this -- the design concept of sub-bass systems for SR generally calls for, or at least accepts, a LF roll-off around 40 Hz, so they will not have much below that -- if you're looking for that lowest octave, then maybe that's the perceived deficiency in these speakers. It's a design trade-off -- keeping the enclosure size manageable along with not wasting a big bunch of power pointlessly trying to amplify something that doesn't contribute much to the aural experience.

It sounds like you're determined to go forth boldly with this experiment; I suspect no one has an answer to your original query of what car stereo woofer we would recommend. Do you have some particular drivers in mind? It might be an interesting thought experiment to see how many 'Kicker' subs it would take to keep up with the output of just one of your Ampeg cabs...on paper. It might do be hard to do with much precision because of the exceptionally high BS-factor in the performance data of car stereo drivers, but even theoretically, I bet it would be a significant number.

 

[Ccarson26]

It's a brilliant idea. None of the lunkheads trashing it has any real experience, right?
The fact that they're not giving you driver models just shows how little they know.
You don't need their recommendations. You've gone to music stores and checked out the PA subs. Now just go to some car audio stores and pick out the most awesomest car subs you can find.
You've thought this through. Go for it. Show the haters.

Darn. My decision to stop being sarcastic has completely fallen by the wayside. Probably knocked loose by someone's awesome car subwoofers.

Thank you for your useful insight and knowledge.. Much Appreciated

 

[Sixgunn]

Hey guys, looking to get some information on using a car subwoofer to fill in the low-end on my bass rig.. What driver would you use and why?

Cheers,

No.

 

[Redbrangus]

It's a brilliant idea. None of the lunkheads trashing it has any real experience, right?
The fact that they're not giving you driver models just shows how little they know.
You don't need their recommendations. You've gone to music stores and checked out the PA subs. Now just go to some car audio stores and pick out the most awesomest car subs you can find.
You've thought this through. Go for it. Show the haters.

Darn. My decision to stop being sarcastic has completely fallen by the wayside. Probably knocked loose by someone's awesome car subwoofers.

Thanks, I needed that.

 

[agedhorse]

Yes, exactly.. My Mesa Titan V12 has a balanced XLR output that comes directly off the preamp signal.. This would be the signal chain starting point that goes into the crossover, maybe some modulation, and into the Crown XLS 2500..

Modulation of the lowest octave? Why?

Hint, modulating the lowest octave of the low passed signal path will make the signal even more muddy and undefined. The effect of modulation itself will not be identifiable as such, because it depends on the higher frequencies for effect.

 

[Ccarson26]

Well, I will acknowledge this -- the design concept of sub-bass systems for SR generally calls for, or at least accepts, a LF roll-off around 40 Hz, so they will not have much below that -- if you're looking for that lowest octave, then maybe that's the perceived deficiency in these speakers. It's a design trade-off -- keeping the enclosure size manageable along with not wasting a big bunch of power pointlessly trying to amplify something that doesn't contribute much to the aural experience.

It sounds like you're determined to go forth boldly with this experiment; I suspect no one has an answer to your original query of what car stereo woofer we would recommend. Do you have some particular drivers in mind? It might be an interesting thought experiment to see how many 'Kicker' subs it would take to keep up with the output of just one of your Ampeg cabs...on paper. It might do be hard to do with much precision because of the exceptionally high BS-factor in the performance data of car stereo drivers, but even theoretically, I bet it would be a significant number.

Yes, thank you for your feedback.. I have the RE Audio XXX 15" driver in mind.. She is quite heavy.. It will be powered by a Crown XLS 2500 for testing.. More power will be added if needed..

 

[agedhorse]

I'd have to disagree on the 120 vs 12 volt amplifier concern. Any car audio amplifier worth a crap has a power supply capable of supporting it's output power. Plenty of 1K+ car audio amps out there, just need the current capabilities to support it.
As for this car sub issue....there are some pretty heavy duty drivers out there. Problem is your use of them dictates wether or not it's a feasible journey.

One of the defining differences in car audio speakers is sensitivity. This trade-off is necessary to increase robustness and reduce failures.

 

[Ccarson26]

I'm sure I could build a pedal to emulate a license plate rattling on a 1995 Sukuzi Samurai. Probably for cheaper than a car sub

<edit> OP you probably don't deserve being poopie on as much are you are. It's an idea, and to be fair, for the inexperienced, not a bad one.
... but it won't work

Why are you convinced it will not work? Have you tried this? Have you tested the concept?

 

[agedhorse]

Yes, thank you for your feedback.. I have the RE Audio XXX 15" driver in mind.. She is quite heavy.. It will be powered by a Crown XLS 2500 for testing.. More power will be added if needed..

View attachment 4237230

I think you will find the 85dB/1W/1M. Sensitivity (if correct) will be a significant challenge. I think you will also find the power handling to be optimistic at best.

 

[Ccarson26]

I'd have to disagree on the 120 vs 12 volt amplifier concern. Any car audio amplifier worth a crap has a power supply capable of supporting it's output power. Plenty of 1K+ car audio amps out there, just need the current capabilities to support it.
As for this car sub issue....there are some pretty heavy duty drivers out there. Problem is your use of them dictates wether or not it's a feasible journey.

Well, respectfully, 12 volts is 12 volts.. Not much you can do about that.. And that is the point.. A voltage of 10x will generate much less current draw..

 

[Ccarson26]

Car subs normally have a sensitivity of around 85db. So, it would take 5-6 of them to equal a good 1x12 bass cabinet.

That's why nobody does this.

I think it's interesting that so many people dismiss the idea and tell me exactly why it won't work, yet nobody actually does it.. Makes me want to experiment even more..

 

[Sixgunn]

I think the obvious answer is, if it was a good idea it would have already been done by at least one of the multitudes of musical instrument amp and/or cabinet manufacturers. They spend tons of money on R&D.

 

[Ccarson26]

I'm sure I could build a pedal to emulate a license plate rattling on a 1995 Sukuzi Samurai. Probably for cheaper than a car sub

<edit> OP you probably don't deserve being poopie on as much are you are. It's an idea, and to be fair, for the inexperienced, not a bad one.
... but it won't work

Are you sure it won't work?? And if you're sure, can you explain to me why it won't work?

 

[6thplanet]

One of the defining differences in car audio speakers is sensitivity. This trade-off is necessary to increase robustness and reduce failures.

True, but the sensitivity issue can be negated by bi-amping. A "car" woofer might be fine in the hands of one player, but not in another.

 

[abarson]

Doesn't the 'DI' ouput from an amp head contain the same processed signal as what is coming into the front ofthe amp as manipulated by whatever pedals you have inline between your bass guitar and the front amp input? I never used it before, never had a need. I specifically said hi-pass here so as to not feed the sub speaker anything lower than 31hz or whatever hz I dial it in at.

A DI output is a full signal of what is present after the preamplifier. It is usually selectable whether it is pre-EQ or post-EQ, if that's what you mean by processing. The DI output is used to match the impedance and signal level to connect to a mixing console or recording interface with the least amount of noise, and as such does not have filters.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

My answer would be none.

You're Ampeg 15" and all the other cabs aren't capable enough for you?
Are you properly powering those cabs?

Car subs are not meant to project low end like Bass or PA rig, that's why they're different and optimized for use in vehicles.
You'd be getting significantly better performance with a PA sub.

However I like to have an open mind, so if you end up doing it, please post your results.
Good luck,
Dirk