Carol Kaye: Shes got opinions

[Lyle Caldwell]

(McCartney) was a natural, but isn't it true that during that period - when they started to break out of the 'normal' type progressions - he studied (informally) a bit of music theory? Or at least started to absorb some of what George Martin was doing?

I'm wondering; "Penny Lane" is...a combination of other things Paul might've heard at the time? In my opinion his talent as a song writer began by doing other people's tunes, but in the end, it wasn't his 'listening' to other people's things, but 'listening' to his 'inner music' so to speak. Being able to go beyond what he learned from other people and more or less forget it, and listen to what was going on in his head instead.

I'm not sure; was Penny Lane derived from some other tune?

Just wondering.

Best regards.

McCartney was listening to a bit of everything - George Martin was intentionally exposing him to a lot of composers, from Bach to Stockhausen, especially while the two of them were collaborating on a movie soundtrack that came out right before Pepper.

The piccolo trumpet on Penny Lane was inspired by the trumpets in the Brandenburg Concertos, but I don't remember which movement. Aside from the trumpet, the changes in Penny Lane are vaudeville, but with some nice modulations between verse and chorus and coda.

The thing that kills me about Penny Lane is the piano sound - each line of the verse is a quick fade between 4 different piano tracks done with 4 different pianos - a tack piano, an upright, a baby grand, and a grand. Not something most people would notice, but just a killer timbral shift throughout, and something that would be very difficult to record and mix correctly with no automation and only 4 tracks to work with. Check it out.

To bring this back to the topic, Paul, like Wilson himself, can just hear something and know it will work, even if he can't articulate why based on theory. He can even hear things that will work that theory doesn't easily suggest.

So props to Carol Kaye for playing Brian Wilson's parts so well and making such great music, both with the Beach Boys and all the other great Wrecking Crew tracks.

I think she diminishes herself when she gets into the "Kaye or Jamerson" debate (and the existing records make her claims very shaky). But her contributions are undeniable.

 

[paul n]

He was a natural, but isn't it true that during that period - when they started to break out of the 'normal' type progressions - he studied (informally) a bit of music theory? Or at least started to absorb some of what George Martin was doing?

In my opinion his talent as a song writer began by doing other people's tunes, but in the end, it wasn't his 'listening' to other people's things, but 'listening' to his 'inner music' so to speak. Being able to go beyond what he learned from other people and more or less forget it, and listen to what was going on in his head instead.

Yeah but he got therre by listening and playing his butt off. As for formaly studying, I can't imagine him doing that, at least at that time. Listening to other classical and other stuff and letting it influence him yes, formal training, no.

Lets not get into the Kaye-Jamerson thing, it just goes no where. It was too long ago and there isn't any reliable record to go by. By the way, I havn't seen her talk about the situation unless she gets asked, to be honest I think she's a bit tired of the whole thing, as am I.

~Paul

 

[sloppysubs]

In regards to the McCarney quote on his songwriting, don't we all do that? I mean we learn the songs our favorites wrote, see how they structered them, shaped them, reapeats, etc etc etc. Then over time we eventually find our own talents and ways of doing things?

At least, that's how my songwriting began. Now I feel like I have a pretty good idea of what i am/am not capable of.

 

[DemoEtc]

Yah, there's a certain point where we (or they) go beyond our influences. But I think - not having read the interview with Kay - Carol refers to those who leave it at the point of learning other people's stuff.

That said, it IS pretty fun learning a favorite piece or line or song.

But I've read a lot of threads on other boards where the subject of song writing comes up and there are lots of replies suggesting the originating poster take pieces from songs they like, modify them and stick them together. That, at least to me, is anti-inspiration. It's the attitude that a thing can be dissected, pieced together and different way, and that THAT will be original.

I don't know how many people here (or there) really agree with that concept/notion, but I personally don't.

When responding to such threads though, I've come to understand that my original assumption that everyone who plays is really serious and takes the music seriously and has a need to try, in whatever way, to advance it on the personal front and for personal reason, is wrong. And that's okay too. There are lots of people who never really aspire to play professionally or to even do their own thing and simply enjoy playing the tunes they love, and that I think, is a great thing. It's just that I wrongly assumed that everyone was like me (or the serious folk here) where music and the playing of it is somehwhat more than a hobby. I think that's the gist (perhaps, again not having read the Kay interview) of what she's talking about.

So in that, I agree with her. She's not talking - apparently - about everyone who seriously studies a favorite piece, with no intent of ever performing it (except for personal satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment), but instead the ones who just sit and strum a guitar to relax, or learn a heavy metal riff and have simple fun at it. A diversion and nothing more.

And as I said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, but sometimes it takes a little bit to discern that there IS a difference sometimes - especiall online when we don't really know what a person's real interest or goals are. The original poster took offense at her statements, but maybe...without due cause.

She wasn't, if I understand it correctly, talking specifically about you or those of you who take this music seriously. I mean, there's many levels, right? Hobbyist, serious amateur, pro, burned-out pro wanting to get back to the real meaning of 'amateur', and finally someone just enjoying it again like when we first started.

I consider myself in that last segment, just trying to enjoy it again, but, being here, now, lends a certain insight perhaps, that I think I share with lots of guys here. You see the full circle and can discern what people's needs and goals are, and in the end, to use a really overly used cliche - it's ALL good.

I agree what another poster mentioned about Carol being conservative in her views, but I'd add another word - traditional.

Best regards, all.

 

[JimmyM]

I absolutely loved Carol...until I started posting on her website regularly. Every question was considered a challenge to her genius; every comment was considered a putdown of what she's done, every damn thing I said was taken the wrong way, and every opinion I had that didn't completely jibe with hers was either ridiculed or yanked off her board.

On the other hand, she completely cured me of pain in my RH when I use a pick; when you order something from her she sends oodles and oodles of bonus stuff like CD's, press clippings, and picks; and she's very giving to people who want to learn the way she teaches. And you have to admit that she's done more than everyone on Talkbass put together. But dang, she can be just as mean and nasty as she wants to be. And it makes me sad because I really wanted to like her and have her be my pal. But I couldn't take having to explain myself over every little harmless comment or question I'd make.

 

[Warwickthumb]

No, that makes you a Jaco clone.

Kidding ...Of course it doesn't.
Don't take it personally...She ain't talkin' about you.

No it's cool man. I was just saying I saw these as milestones in my bass playing. Something that really challanged me. And i saw it as a great accomplishment. I was out of town for a day and this post turned into two pages!! I respect, and i give her so much respect. It's got to be hard being a girl and making it as a bass player. I was at the studiowith Jauqo yesturday. And he knows her. So i brought up some points from the interview. She opinionated. And thats how she is. There was a girl there who studied with Carol for4 years. I didn't get a chance to talk to her about it. But I'm she learned alot. I was just surprised by her comment thats all. I learned the scales and the theroy when I first started playing. And i still use the scales to warm up. I know the importance of them. And when I was gigivng lessons I always stressed the importance of the scales.

 

[sloppysubs]

Yah, there's a certain point where we (or they) go beyond our influences. But I think - not having read the interview with Kay - Carol refers to those who leave it at the point of learning other people's stuff.

That said, it IS pretty fun learning a favorite piece or line or song.

But I've read a lot of threads on other boards where the subject of song writing comes up and there are lots of replies suggesting the originating poster take pieces from songs they like, modify them and stick them together. That, at least to me, is anti-inspiration. It's the attitude that a thing can be dissected, pieced together and different way, and that THAT will be original.

I don't know how many people here (or there) really agree with that concept/notion, but I personally don't.

When responding to such threads though, I've come to understand that my original assumption that everyone who plays is really serious and takes the music seriously and has a need to try, in whatever way, to advance it on the personal front and for personal reason, is wrong. And that's okay too. There are lots of people who never really aspire to play professionally or to even do their own thing and simply enjoy playing the tunes they love, and that I think, is a great thing. It's just that I wrongly assumed that everyone was like me (or the serious folk here) where music and the playing of it is somehwhat more than a hobby. I think that's the gist (perhaps, again not having read the Kay interview) of what she's talking about.

So in that, I agree with her. She's not talking - apparently - about everyone who seriously studies a favorite piece, with no intent of ever performing it (except for personal satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment), but instead the ones who just sit and strum a guitar to relax, or learn a heavy metal riff and have simple fun at it. A diversion and nothing more.

And as I said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, but sometimes it takes a little bit to discern that there IS a difference sometimes - especiall online when we don't really know what a person's real interest or goals are. The original poster took offense at her statements, but maybe...without due cause.

She wasn't, if I understand it correctly, talking specifically about you or those of you who take this music seriously. I mean, there's many levels, right? Hobbyist, serious amateur, pro, burned-out pro wanting to get back to the real meaning of 'amateur', and finally someone just enjoying it again like when we first started.

I consider myself in that last segment, just trying to enjoy it again, but, being here, now, lends a certain insight perhaps, that I think I share with lots of guys here. You see the full circle and can discern what people's needs and goals are, and in the end, to use a really overly used cliche - it's ALL good.

I agree what another poster mentioned about Carol being conservative in her views, but I'd add another word - traditional.

Best regards, all.

Bravo!

 

[paul n]

I absolutely loved Carol...until I started posting on her website regularly. Every question was considered a challenge to her genius; every comment was considered a putdown of what she's done, every damn thing I said was taken the wrong way, and every opinion I had that didn't completely jibe with hers was either ridiculed or yanked off her board.

On the other hand, she completely cured me of pain in my RH when I use a pick; when you order something from her she sends oodles and oodles of bonus stuff like CD's, press clippings, and picks; and she's very giving to people who want to learn the way she teaches. And you have to admit that she's done more than everyone on Talkbass put together. But dang, she can be just as mean and nasty as she wants to be. And it makes me sad because I really wanted to like her and have her be my pal. But I couldn't take having to explain myself over every little harmless comment or question I'd make.

Same with me, I was in total awe, then I started posting on her board, and got turned off. I avoid reading dialog involing her now, she always says SOMETHING that erks me. There's a lot of things I disagree with her about, but I was always afraid to counter her when she posted about it. Stuff like, her take on intonation, that it's for guitars, not basses (she sets the saddles almost all the way back) and her assesment that body wood has NO effect on a basses tone. She also seems to think bass wieght is related stricktly to a basses design, not the materials (that's a big part of why she uses Ibanez, the two she got were from a very light batch). Of course she also seems to feel Jazz is the only music, but that's not uncomon among Jazz players.

~Paul

 

[Rodriguez]

It's a DIVA thang! The one Carol Kaye bassline that stuck to me was Hikky-Burr (theme from a Bill Cosby show from the '70's), from Quincy Jones' "Smack Water Jack" LP. I met her at a NAMM show a few years back, I asked her about it, she grabbed her bass and played the whole song for me .... and played her --- off!

Easy,
R

P.S. When I worked w/ Roberta Flack, she used to wear a t-shirt that read, "I'M NOT OPINIONATED, I'M JUST ALWAYS RIGHT"

 

[JAUQO III-X]

I was at the studiowith Jauqo yesturday. And he knows her. So i brought up some points from the interview. She opinionated. And thats how she is. There was a girl there who studied with Carol for4 years. I didn't get a chance to talk to her about it.

Carole gets my respect,I have no issues with her.one issue that a lot of Bass players here at TB seem to have with Her is that she's played on certain recordings and people believing she didn't,well I've been knowing Carole for a while and I have never asked her about mentioned statements,mainley because I respect her enough not to bother her about something that is maybe much bigger than me.and I know how things can be with studios,I myself have been a Ghost bassist having played on a few recordings right after one bassist played and nailed it but for whatever reason I'm called in on occassion,but usaully paid extra not to mention the sessions or the artists.Carole is very opinionated and maybe rightfully so for she has had to deal with a lot and she seem to have endured them all and continues to do so.and my friend who studied bass with Carole is named Amanda Mierderk.

 

[Moving Pictures]

Carole gets my respect,I have no issues with her.one issue that a lot of Bass players here at TB seem to have with Her is that she's played on certain recordings and people believing she didn't,well I've been knowing Carole for a while and I have never asked her about mentioned statements,mainley because I respect her enough not to bother her about something that is maybe much bigger than me.and I know how things can be with studios,I myself have been a Ghost bassist having played on a few recordings right after one bassist played and nailed it but for whatever reason I'm called in on occassion,but usaully paid extra not to mention the sessions or the artists.Carole is very opinionated and maybe rightfully so for she has had to deal with a lot and she seem to have endured them all and continues to do so.and my friend who studied bass with Carole is named Amanda Mierderk.

I consider Carol to be one of my greatest influences. I have learned a lot from her and though we disagree on a couple of things she has always remained encouraging when I have posted about a milestone or have asked a question when I was stumped on her material. I think you nailed in that last statement - she has endured a lot and is entitled to all that comes with that. She certainly has my respect and I am not going to waste a lot of time on the small things we disagree on because there are larger things she can teach us.

Dan

 

[mstott25]

Who isn't opinionated?!? Hell Gary Willis is very opinionated, he will tell you the best bass to play, the best bass amplification, the best way to learn how to walk, solo, train your ear and etc. It's just that Willis is an extremely likable guy and won't tell you you're wrong (he'll just think it). However, Carol Kaye is some 70 years old...I don't think she acts much different than a lot of people her age, she'll tell you what she thinks and why.

As far as playing...she is a MONSTER. If you ever have the opportunity to see her play live DO IT! I saw her in a funk setting and I couldn't believe it. If you like jazz, do yourself a favor and download her "Thumbs Up" CD from her website. Her double stops, fills, and solos...this lady is a legend.

 

[skewh]

I think that learning theory is essential to the full understanding of any instrument. Then again, I also don't think that learning songs is for amateurs. After I taught myself theory I've become exceptionally better than I was prior to my self education, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't like to be able to play 'Donna Lee,' or some other great bass song. If you know theory, the songs are just an after thought, that are great fun to play (especially when you're in a creative rut).

 

[Warwickthumb]

Unfortunatly, were I live there really arn't alot of bass instructers. They are guitarists who teach bass. Not much going to be learned there. I bought some books and from there I learned scales, theory etc etc. I wish I had someone to teach me. Yeah ive played for 12 years now. But would I be better if i had someone there to help me along, maybe. It's just that comment hurt the worst. I put alot off effort into learning those songs. Prorbably nothing special to anyone else. But it is to me. I guess its like a pianist who studies classical music. We all know of the great composers. These are not easy songs. The probably take great skill to learn. And play well. Would they be amatures too? Well now I'm going off topic. I'd love to meet her. IF she would be open to it, talk about music and bass. She has way more experience then I do. I love talking to the older cats. You can learn so much, just from talking to them.

 

[darkblack99]

I was just saying I saw these as milestones in my bass playing. Something that really challanged me. And i saw it as a great accomplishment.

And well you should...Anything that enhances both technique and positive feelings of accomplishment within the self is a good thing.

To paraphrase a Billy Sheehan quote: If you set a goals of a million miles away and 'only' travel ten thousand, you've travelled farther than the individual who only set a goal of a thousand miles for their journey.

 

[The Owl]

Who isn't opinionated?!? Hell Gary Willis is very opinionated, he will tell you the best bass to play, the best bass amplification, the best way to learn how to walk, solo, train your ear and etc. It's just that Willis is an extremely likable guy and won't tell you you're wrong (he'll just think it). However, Carol Kaye is some 70 years old...I don't think she acts much different than a lot of people her age, she'll tell you what she thinks and why.

As far as playing...she is a MONSTER. If you ever have the opportunity to see her play live DO IT! I saw her in a funk setting and I couldn't believe it. If you like jazz, do yourself a favor and download her "Thumbs Up" CD from her website. Her double stops, fills, and solos...this lady is a legend.

She has indeed worked hard, paid her dues and been through a lot, can't fault her for having strong opinions at all, I applaud her for her outright honestly even though I disagree with certain things. In any case, she's the real deal, an all too rare thng these days. It's really cool to see her rediscovering her first love, jazz-guitar, it struck a chord with me since a few years ago, I rediscovered my musical love, prog-rock.

Hats off to CK, she's earned it.

 

[Marcus Willett]

she sometimes falls into the error of confusing "I found an approach that works for me and might help you" with "I found the one true path."

This is one of the most intelligent and profound statements I have ever come across...well done.

 

[jgbass]

Back to Carol, I was actually disapointed to see that the instructional DVD she finnaly put out is for guitar, not bass. I kinda gather she's all but left the bass behind for guitar now.

~Paul

Although the latest DVD is on guitar, it works amazingly well with bass. The DVD is about concepts of jazz soloing that, while taught on guitar, apply to other instruments. Be sure, though, that you have studied previous related instructional materials such as the Jazz Bass CD and Guide, maybe at least some of the Jazz Improv Book too to get the most out of this. My jazz playing on electric and double bass has just gotten so much better already in such a short time and there's still so much more to learn. I have total respect for Carol and her approach and teaching materials. Nothing has been more valuable or has worked so well.

 

[willgroove2]

Unfortunatly, were I live there really arn't alot of bass instructers. They are guitarists who teach bass. Not much going to be learned there. I bought some books and from there I learned scales, theory etc etc. I wish I had someone to teach me. Yeah ive played for 12 years now. But would I be better if i had someone there to help me along, maybe. It's just that comment hurt the worst. I put alot off effort into learning those songs. Prorbably nothing special to anyone else. But it is to me. I guess its like a pianist who studies classical music. We all know of the great composers. These are not easy songs. The probably take great skill to learn. And play well. Would they be amatures too? Well now I'm going off topic. I'd love to meet her. IF she would be open to it, talk about music and bass. She has way more experience then I do. I love talking to the older cats. You can learn so much, just from talking to them.

I have had students who come to me after working with other teachers some of whom are primarily guitarist,in fact i studied with jazz guitar great bobby broom(www.bobbybroom.com) myself in college.it was very cool on many levels because i learned a lot about music but not much about bass guitar technque-wise.i was lucky because i had strong fundamentels when he and i hooked up.when i get a student who comes from more of a guitar vibe i find myself having to reinforce some basic thing's most of the time.my suggestion would be to seek out a bass teacher who play's bass as a primary insturment because although you can learn theory from anybody,a bass player can help you apply it.as far as carol kay,mad respect for what she has done in her musical life but im a little put off by some thing's she's reported to have said.i would love to meet her and ask questions one on one

 

[JimK]

...i learned a lot about music but not much about bass guitar technque-wise.

That is cool.
If I ever decide to hook-up with an instructor...chances are it will not be with a bassist(unless it's Ben Allison).
There comes a time when music lessons are needed vs. bass lessons.

Carol Kaye?
In a past thread, I said my piece...and was e-mailed by one of her minions. You see, I am the evil white male that doesn't want females to have their due. In fact, I printed out that email from "Batacumbele" & pinned it to my 'Wall of Shame' here at work.
LMAO.

Another very, very opinionated bassist that woulda been all over this thread(when he was a member here at TB) is Dann Glenn.