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Carol Kaye
- Thread starter Treena Foster
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Something I heard about this is that there were often multiple tracks recorded for tunes at different times which means more than one artist may cut tracks for a tune. These would be shuffled around by producers who may not have put too much effort into remembering which track they used in the final mix.
So it's feasable that two people recorded official Motown tracks for one tune, tracks may have been switched by an engineer because of a tape glitch or something trivial and the answer is gone for good.
I know that a lot of rock and pop bands are surprised to hear how good they sound in the final mix once they've been replaced by some studio hotshot
It's the music biz, the history just aint that accurate.
And just to make this even more difficult to settle, Carol, as a studio hotshot may have been asked to cop a Jamerson feel for a session and done a good job.
This didn't really help did it?
So it's feasable that two people recorded official Motown tracks for one tune, tracks may have been switched by an engineer because of a tape glitch or something trivial and the answer is gone for good.
I know that a lot of rock and pop bands are surprised to hear how good they sound in the final mix once they've been replaced by some studio hotshot
It's the music biz, the history just aint that accurate.
And just to make this even more difficult to settle, Carol, as a studio hotshot may have been asked to cop a Jamerson feel for a session and done a good job.
This didn't really help did it?
Come on folks, is it that hard to believe that one person may have recorded the demo and one played on the final version? I'm not an expert on the subject but I have read a couple of articles on this. Jamerson's playing was getting sloppy at the time Motown moved west, He even refused to change his strings after years of use saying "that's where the funk comes from". Not taking anything from him but it does happen. Carol was a hot studio player at the time. It's not far fetched to think that the producer hired her to play on the final versions of the recordings.
The arguement aside, being a weekend player I wish I could thank Carol for her contributions to bass guitar education. I learned everything I ever needed to know about playing bass from her books. Of course I learned alot after that, but that was just icing on the cake. Carol taught me how to bake the cake.
The arguement aside, being a weekend player I wish I could thank Carol for her contributions to bass guitar education. I learned everything I ever needed to know about playing bass from her books. Of course I learned alot after that, but that was just icing on the cake. Carol taught me how to bake the cake.
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Motown's West Coast Studio Band.
During the mid-Sixties Motown augmented its overwhelming Detroit recording schedule with a few west Coast sessions. In addition to accommodate complex touring schedules the company often flew tapes between Los Angeles and Detroit. The majority of the hits were still being recorded in Detroit, but by the late 60s the Los Angeles operation played an increasingly important role. The Jackson 5 sessions, in fact, were recorded almost entirely in Los Angeles.
Keyboards - Mike Rubini, Joe Sample, Clarence McDonald, Don Randi, Larry Knechtel
Guitars - Arthur Wright, David T. Walker, Thomas Tedesco, Louie Shelton, Adolph Green, Weldon T. Parks
Bass - Wilson Felder, Carol Kaye, Bill Pitman, Ron Brown
Drums - Earl Palmer, Ed Greene, Gene Pello, Paul Humphreys
Percussion - Gary Coleman, Bobbye Porter, King Errisson, Joe Clayton, Sandra Crouch, Jerry Steinholtz, Emil Richards
Arrangers - Gene Page, James Carmichael, Arthur Wright, Gil Ashley
courtesy Allan (Dr. Licks) Slutsky
This is what you may have been talking about Moo!
I dig Carol to much to continue to argue a point that will never be conclusive, ya know?
Motown's West Coast Studio Band.
During the mid-Sixties Motown augmented its overwhelming Detroit recording schedule with a few west Coast sessions. In addition to accommodate complex touring schedules the company often flew tapes between Los Angeles and Detroit. The majority of the hits were still being recorded in Detroit, but by the late 60s the Los Angeles operation played an increasingly important role. The Jackson 5 sessions, in fact, were recorded almost entirely in Los Angeles.
Keyboards - Mike Rubini, Joe Sample, Clarence McDonald, Don Randi, Larry Knechtel
Guitars - Arthur Wright, David T. Walker, Thomas Tedesco, Louie Shelton, Adolph Green, Weldon T. Parks
Bass - Wilson Felder, Carol Kaye, Bill Pitman, Ron Brown
Drums - Earl Palmer, Ed Greene, Gene Pello, Paul Humphreys
Percussion - Gary Coleman, Bobbye Porter, King Errisson, Joe Clayton, Sandra Crouch, Jerry Steinholtz, Emil Richards
Arrangers - Gene Page, James Carmichael, Arthur Wright, Gil Ashley
courtesy Allan (Dr. Licks) Slutsky
This is what you may have been talking about Moo!
I dig Carol to much to continue to argue a point that will never be conclusive, ya know?
Well, what you have there is proof that Carol Kaye played on Motown tracks. Problem is I don't recall there every being a controversy or argument there. The controversy is about specific Motown tracks. To have her cop a "Jamerson feel" is on thing, to be able to sound exactly like Jamerson,with a pick, is another.
Also to argue that maybe they had Carol Kaye fill in because of Jamersons drinking problem doesn't really hold water. "I Was Made to Love Her" and "Bernadette" were both initially released in '67, well before the time when Jamerson's vises started to have an impact on his reliability.
Also to argue that maybe they had Carol Kaye fill in because of Jamersons drinking problem doesn't really hold water. "I Was Made to Love Her" and "Bernadette" were both initially released in '67, well before the time when Jamerson's vises started to have an impact on his reliability.
Originally posted by Moo
Something I heard about this is that there were often multiple tracks recorded for tunes at different times which means more than one artist may cut tracks for a tune. These would be shuffled around by producers who may not have put too much effort into remembering which track they used in the final mix.
So it's feasable that two people recorded official Motown tracks for one tune, tracks may have been switched by an engineer because of a tape glitch or something trivial and the answer is gone for good.
I know that a lot of rock and pop bands are surprised to hear how good they sound in the final mix once they've been replaced by some studio hotshot
It's the music biz, the history just aint that accurate.
And just to make this even more difficult to settle, Carol, as a studio hotshot may have been asked to cop a Jamerson feel for a session and done a good job.
This didn't really help did it?
That's not very plausible for the songs we're talking about. Remember, the issue is not with all Motown, it's with specific tracks recorded in a specific period of time. A time when Jamerson, by all accounts, was at his peak. And a time when his presence on the tracks was documented by all the players, songwriters, and producers who played on those tracks at that time.
No, that doesn't work, because the disputed tracks were not done when Jamerson was sliding downhill, they were done when he is universally acknowledged to have been at his peak. When I say acknowledged, I mean acknowledged by the people who were actually there. Musicans, artists, songwriters, and composers. Kaye's legacy is imposing enough without her being credited with stuff the preponderance of the evidence says she didn't do.
If you're gonna quote Slutsky, quote his whole research on the subject. After talking to people Kaye herself told him to talk to, he came away more convinced than ever that Kaye did not play on the disputed tracks.
As for as being conclusive goes, at this point, it seems that nothing would be conclusive enough for you except a trip back in a time machine, and maybe not even that. The evidence for Kaye on those tracks is so weak, and that for Jamerson so strong, that it becomes difficult to see why there's even a debate.
BL, thanks for that.
gbp1, are you checking this out? Read this and the question about that set of disputed recordings should never, ever, arise again. In the face of the painstaking work Slutsky has done over the years, none of the pro-Kaye position on this stuff makes a shred of sense.
Once again, just to avoid any hint of the idea that this is about discrediting Kaye, I repeat: she was and is an important bassist who deserves a lot of credit for what she did do. But any reasonable look at the evidence says she didn't do the disputed stuff, and the attempt to say she did discredits Jamerson.
- May 30, 2000
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- Creator of: iGigBook Sheet Music Manager
It looks like she did play the tunes in question for motown, she just wasn't the bassist on the hit recording. If we try to wrap our head around that, this doesn't become a big deal at all. There's some truth to what she saying which may lead her to believe that she played on the hit recording. Perhaps she's in it too far to back down? I don't know, but I can understand why she's saying she played on something, she did, but again it wasn't the hit recording. To me it makes sense because it seems she wasn't plugged into the music in such a way that she knew about the detroit musicians in the same way they didn't know about her. I see all of this as a reasonable error on her part and maybe one day she will adjust her credits to reflect the nature and circumstances under which she played on the tunes in question.
What's funny about this whole debate is that it's okay for Jamerson to be given credit for tunes he didn't play on and Babbit or another bassist did. Where's the big crusade about that? Am I missing something?
One last thing, on this whole issue of being able to determine if something is being played with a pick or fingerstyle. I find it hard to believe that there aren't bassists that play with a pick that have the ability to get a sound indistinguishable from someone playing with an index finger. The difference with someone playing with their thumb is a more credible argument to me.
I think Richard has nailed it.
I'm sure that Carol believes she played on those songs - and it seems she probably did, but not on the well-known versions that are attributed to Jamerson.
I can well believe that her memories of playing those songs could lead her to believe she played on the hit versions. There have often been cases of songwriters not even remembering which songs they've written...
Although it's considered to be a Lennon song, I think both Lennon & McCartney have "remembered" writing "In My Life". Paul says he remembers taking John's lyrics to a piano and putting them to music, IIRC. I think it's probably John's song, especially seeing as he sings the lead vocal, and it fits his voice, and his style so well. But you see how memory can elude you.
Also, y'know what they say - if you actually remember the 60s, then you can't have been there
I'm sure that Carol believes she played on those songs - and it seems she probably did, but not on the well-known versions that are attributed to Jamerson.
I can well believe that her memories of playing those songs could lead her to believe she played on the hit versions. There have often been cases of songwriters not even remembering which songs they've written...
Although it's considered to be a Lennon song, I think both Lennon & McCartney have "remembered" writing "In My Life". Paul says he remembers taking John's lyrics to a piano and putting them to music, IIRC. I think it's probably John's song, especially seeing as he sings the lead vocal, and it fits his voice, and his style so well. But you see how memory can elude you.
Also, y'know what they say - if you actually remember the 60s, then you can't have been there
Re your first point, who said that was OK either? Jamerson's obviously not claiming Babbitt's work, so who is? I can well imagine that some of Babbitt's work is mistakenly attributed to Jamerson, but that, if so, is a different situation. The whole crux of the Kaye-Jamerson issue isn't mistaken attribution, which everybody knows can happen, but *actively making false claims on one's own behalf*. And apparently abortive lawsuits as well.
As far as style, there probably are some pick players who can sound indistinguishable from finger players. As a very general rule, however, I'd say that playing with a pick sounds a little different from playing with fingers, all else being equal. But in any case, that's not that germane to this dicussion, because the point is whether you can tell a specific pick player (Kaye) from a specific finger player (Jamerson).
Actually, I do agree that pick vs finger isn't necessarily that obvious.
I'm not talking about Kaye vs Jamerson, just pick and finger players in general.
Obviously, listening to a solo'ed bass track, or one on which the bass is sound is clear, it's gonna be pretty easy to tell.
But, in a mix, it may not be. The treble "click" you get from the pick may well be lost in the mix, for various reasons - it may be masked by the other instruments, particularly in a dense arrangement, or it may be EQed such that it's much harder to tell.
It depends on the pick, the player's technique, the tone of the bass/amp, and any EQ - as well as whatever else is happening.
And, add to this the generally low sound quality of 60s recordings - in general they have far less definition and clarity than today's recordings.
I can well believe that a picked bass could be mistaken for fingered bass, in these circumstances.
However, whether or not the Jamerson vs Kaye situation falls under this category or not, I don't know. I can't say how "finger-like" Kaye's bass tracks may or may not have sounded like (or indeed did sound like, on the Motown tracks she did play on).
I'm not talking about Kaye vs Jamerson, just pick and finger players in general.
Obviously, listening to a solo'ed bass track, or one on which the bass is sound is clear, it's gonna be pretty easy to tell.
But, in a mix, it may not be. The treble "click" you get from the pick may well be lost in the mix, for various reasons - it may be masked by the other instruments, particularly in a dense arrangement, or it may be EQed such that it's much harder to tell.
It depends on the pick, the player's technique, the tone of the bass/amp, and any EQ - as well as whatever else is happening.
And, add to this the generally low sound quality of 60s recordings - in general they have far less definition and clarity than today's recordings.
I can well believe that a picked bass could be mistaken for fingered bass, in these circumstances.
However, whether or not the Jamerson vs Kaye situation falls under this category or not, I don't know. I can't say how "finger-like" Kaye's bass tracks may or may not have sounded like (or indeed did sound like, on the Motown tracks she did play on).
I don't disagree with the stuff I didn't quote. Sure, the two can get mixed up, especially with the state of the recording art what it was then. But as for Kaye's sound vs. Jamerson's, see the link satie posted about 5 posts back. Read what Slutsky had to say about being in the Motown archives and listening to a Kaye track soloed versus listening to a Jamerson track soloed. I don't think he or anybody else is infallible, but he's done orders of magnitude more research on this than any of us.
I think, as a general rule, you can get a decent finger style sound with a pick if you work at it enough. To be able to comp a Jamerson feel, ghost notes and all, with a pick and not be able to hear the difference is a different story. Even with the recording quality of the sixties IHMO.
Would you like to see for yourself what the queen bee has to say about all us bad little boys?
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- May 30, 2000
- 4,707
- 257
- Disclosures
- Creator of: iGigBook Sheet Music Manager
Claiming, mistakenly attributed, six of one half a dozen of the other when the argument becomes one of who played on what. Minor nitpick: Jamerson did claim to play on a tune that Babbit had done and this event was the conerstone of Babbits article in BassPlayer magazine.
As for the false claims, well according to the Slutsky piece she did play those tunes for motown it just wasn't the hit records and I'm sure that's were the problem is.
It's germane when blanket statements about detecting the difference is made and is offered up as the basis for the determination of what is and what ain't.
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