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Chances are You're not that Special!

#41
Dr. Cheese said:
I've been taking lessons again since May, and I am about to start working out of the book, Patterns for Jazz. This means I have to really confront reading, one of my weak points.

All I can say to newbies is do not be seduced by the stories of bassists like Pino Pallidino and Andrew Gouche, who have had great careers despite not reading. Trust me, you are probably not that good. Learn to read!
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You got me thinking about 'what if' but no regrets of course regarding music. I've had my fun and more to come (I hope). I know some guys that can sight read on the spot, but don't have ears or can't improvise 'on the fly' to save their lives. Although knowing and having these skills covers all bases.
 
#42
I'm learning to read, but it isn't part of my lesson plan with my instructor. I feel like it's a skill I can pick up on my own. On the flipside, sorting out a decade of technique issues and the like is probably going to take up most of my time with him. Cool dude though.
 
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#44
Reading opens so many doors.

I learned to read as a kid, and kept it up. I played trumpet and bass through college, as well as choir since I was a pup. Most of my reading these days is choir, but it keeps me sharp. I respect the guys who can look at a score and lay down a "OK, hit record" track. I need a few passes on a cold read to get things solid. Recording read parts really humbled me.
 
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#46
Not real good at sight reading myself but just learning to read really helped a whole lot in learning rhythms and making accurate counts. Even if you look at a piece of music and only play one note but cop the rhythm throughout the sheet it makes reading the notes easier as you go on. Know the rhythm and you can focus more on the notes as you go along. Trying to do both at the same time while learning is frustrating and multitasking like that is just a way to fail at more than one thing at a time.
 
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#48
Johns Bass said:
Not real good at sight reading myself but just learning to read really helped a whole lot in learning rhythms and making accurate counts. Even if you look at a piece of music and only play one note but cop the rhythm throughout the sheet it makes reading the notes easier as you go on. Know the rhythm and you can focus more on the notes as you go along. Trying to do both at the same time while learning is frustrating and multitasking like that is just a way to fail at more than one thing at a time.
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^I didn't think about that. I'm gonna try it.
 
#49
I learned how to play by ear when I was in my teens. Later, in my twenties, I had to learn to play from chord charts for the gig that I had. That got me to think and learn about chordal theory and triadic harmony. During that time I learned the basics: Good Boys Deserve Favor Always and All Cows Eat Grass, and learned the keyboard enough to be able to "read" the pianists left hand, etc. One night I was playing a society gig where the band leader who played piano on the gig was also a bass player. He asked if I was able to sub for him the following weekend. Thinking it was another casual, I said sure. It was the musical Shanendoah. I was in way over my head. I got the book, ended up writing all the note names in over the measures. It was my ear that got me through the gig, though. Whatever the piano player played in her left hand, I played. The music director quickly figured out what was going on, but I guess the result was good enough. She called me to play the next show, and a couple after that. I really enjoyed playing in the pit, so I decided that I needed to learn how to read if I wanted to do those gigs. So, I taught myself how to read. It took a while, and 40 years later, while I don't consider myself a great sight reader, especially as compared to audition pianists and the like, but I can sight read pretty well, and with a quick once over, I can play pretty much anything 90-95% accurately at tempo. The second time through, I get the rest. This skill has proven enormously beneficial for me. I play a lot of theater gigs, better paying gigs, session gigs, and I can learn tunes for my own cover corporate/banquet band and those that I sub for in much less time than if I had to learn them by ear.

My take is that any and all musical skills are worth learning. There is 100% no downside to learning how to read, just as there is no downside to learning to play by ear. Both are valuable skills to have in your toolkit. In a very real sense whether you are reading or playing by ear, making music ultimately is a "by ear" endeavor. Reading allows greater and faster communication of musical ideas amongst those who acquire the skill.

Yes, reading skills atrophy quickly. I try to read some new music every day, whether or not I have an instrument in my hands.
 
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#51
I know there'll come a time when I'll want to learn to read, but that's not in the foreseeable future. For now I'm fine with exploring the limits of chord tones, learning to be fluent as a player, and working on my time/timbre.
 
#52
Liam Wald said:
Those guys probably wouldn't have had very good careers either if they had listened to someone like you.
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Maybe. Or they might have been even bigger and more loaded because they were able to score a lot of other studio gigs that pay well and take next to no effort. When you're not the rock star, you may make a decent living but that's not where the big money is unless you get with a really generous act. Andrew has developed into a star in his own right so he's probably popping some good coin, but Pino's well known to us and hardcore music fans but he was never the star. A lot of solo acts become solo acts so they don't have to share the money or decision-making with anyone else. That said, he was probably paid well but I doubt he made anywhere near what the people who hired him made.

And besides, the whole point of Dr's thread is you ain't Pino or Gooch :D That's OK...neither am I. But if I didn't read, I'd be unemployable by now.
 
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#53
Mechayoshi said:
The atrophy with reading is ridiculous for me. I can take a break for a day or two and it's like I lose some brain cells or something. This gets better over time right? Because I simply can't guarantee that I'll be able to read music every day.
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It does get better with time but you still have to put some time into it. If I quit reading for a while and then get thrown a chart, I can get thrown if it's got anything complex in it, and I've been doing it for 40 years.

Did I just say 40 years?
 
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#54
The ability to sight read got me my gig playing for 70k at NFL games. It has never been an issue when auditioning or playing with anyone else. Nobody has said. "You can read music? You're fired." Just because some can get away with not reading, I wouldn't recommend not learning. It will never hurt you and can only help.
 
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#56
I'm shedding that book too @Dr. Cheese awesome stuff. Anything by Coker, or that he's involved with, is honestly really enlightening.

TBH I had a similar experience last November.

Stopped in at a local Jazz jam night. Came in assuming I would impress everyone.

After watching the house bassist....I realized was there to *learn*.....nicest guy in the world but man could he play circles around me.

Stepped up my game big time ever since.
 
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#57
I bet the Holy Spirit would be glad to help you out, Cheesewhizz. I know you know that all you gotta do is ask.

By the way, what is your full name? Dr. Hammin Cheese? Dr. Chedd A. Cheese? Dr. B.I.G. Cheese? Dr. Mackin Cheese?

(Sorry. Carry on.)
 
#58
In the classical music, reading is absolutely, unequivocally fundamental. That's how orchestras a hundred large all get their parts ready to play in perfect sync, and it's how the music's composer communicates exactly what is desired of each musician. Lord knows the 2nd oboist would never be able to transcribe their part from a Mahler symphony recording, not the notes, much less the dynamic subtleties.

In popular music, we've been able to get away without reading as much as parts are generally a lot easier to hear and learn, as not many bands are more than about 5 people, especially not rhythm sections. But let's say I want to learn Portrait of Tracy, or the What Cha' Gonna Do For Me line. I'd still MUCH rather read and learn those than just try to pick them out of the recordings.

And yet, developing a strong, adaptable ear, especially one reinforced with some conceptual music theory, is ever more important; it's part of what helps us learn to improvise, and whole genres of music (or subgenres? jam band, etc) have come from groups communicating using their ears while playing. As noted elsewhere, many classical musicians who can study orchestral parts to very difficult music cannot improvise their way out of a Hot Pocket wrapper, and just like excellent by-ear-only musicians who don't read, their options are limited. They may be happy with their options, as may ear-only musicians...but putting time and study into both, in my humblest opinion, ultimately strengthens one's abilities at the other, and of course opens up that many new opportunities to play and earn a living where applicable.

And the weirder the music, the more likely you need to be able to read to get thru it. And the weird stuff can be really really fun. Also, sight reading is an advanced skill whereby you can maintain position/fretboard awareness while reading music for the first time, and with practice, you'll magically get better. I'm just starting on the no-looking-at-the-fretboard journey, but in past lives, was skilled on brass/woodwind instruments and sightreading not only got me through gigs and new gigs, it did wonders for keeping practice time efficient when doing things like a 2-hour Easter passion play on oboe, with 20 charts and a week to get ready. And good money for doing what I loved doing!

Ultimately, I feel like no style of learning music is overrated, and for particular groups, various styles are hugely underrated. In our particular group here, I know of many hugely skilled players who don't read, and I fully respect the choice to work strictly by ear. But I also feel like the skill of reading is a 100% positive bonus, one that takes effort but that is worth that effort.
 
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#60
I learned to read treble clef and then did 4 years of combined (piano) clefts in college.

It's useful and it adds to your skill set, hire ability, etc.

On the DB side they talk about playing a jazz version of something well known and not using a chart. Just using your ears and be in the flow. That's just as tough in my book.

The one thing that I know reading does is make you practice and the more you shed the better you shred.
 

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