I made a topic a few days ago about the Chris Squire copy. Pretty much the same results.
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Chinabacker 4005
- Thread starter sing-modulator
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- copy fake rickenbacker
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Wall-hanger or not, I think it is a bad idea. If you want a tribute to the 4005, I would suggest buying a painting of one, or possibly a print- something that pays respect to the 4005, without giving your money to an unoriginal someone that has nothing better to do than to profit off of Rickenbacker's design.
Yeah, enough. There will be opportunities down the road to take this up again. Probably sooner rather than later.
They own the right in the US and countries who have agreed to follow US copyright law...many countries (the US included) choose which laws and regulations of other countries that they choose to adhere to. China doesn't adhere, so to produce, sell or buy such a product here in China is absolutely not illegal or a crime.
It may or may not be wrong...but it is 100% not illegal here.
Rickenbacker threads like this almost always end up violating TB rules #3 & #4 (no politics, no racism), but that seems to be the nature of them. Too bad, really, since it would be valuable to have reasonable discussions about the merits (or lack thereof) of these instruments, especially seeing as how the reality is that people do go out and buy them.
I can tell you though that as someone who has also wondered about how to get a 4005 without getting a 4005, there are far more places on the Interwebz than here on TB to get that information and have those discussions with people. In brief though, the options are limited and imperfect for the most part, or quite expensive and risky. Good luck with your search though.
I own a cheap Chinese bass thats more than awesome enough to gig with. Its not a Ric clone. I would have no qualms about buying another cheap Chinese bass that is a copy of a Ric (or Alembic, or Gibson, or whatever). Its a new world with information, manufacturing, shipping, and int'l trade. If your mind is stuck in the pre-1980s, then you will be left behind on this.
The only question is how good can it be made to play. We all know we can make plywood sound great.
The only question is how good can it be made to play. We all know we can make plywood sound great.
Without wishing to sound rude, I find this statement to be a bit naive. The Chinese manufacturers of these fake instruments aren't utilising advances in information, manufacturing and international trade relations for your benefit or mine. What they are doing is learning, surprisingly slowly in some cases, how to make a product that just scrapes past the scrutiny of the average punter. By dint of the fact that you signed up to this forum I would say you are probably beyond the average punter; I'm talking about guys that think all guitars are 'Stratocasters' and all basses are 'Fenders'. Ironically we've spent the last ten years detailing precisely where and when Chinese manufacturers have been getting their designs wrong, do you think we will be slowly seeing better copies emerging?
The pre-1980s is a completely different era for Chinese instrument manufacturing, but they weren't trying to outright deceive buyers. A big difference in my book.
@Axstar
Don't remember many pre-1980s Chinese instrument manufacturing but I do remember plenty pre-1980s Japanese and Korean ones.
Which Chinese instruments are you referring to ?
Don't remember many pre-1980s Chinese instrument manufacturing but I do remember plenty pre-1980s Japanese and Korean ones.
Which Chinese instruments are you referring to ?
@Axstar & @kodiakblair . I dont mean instruments made in the 80s or earlier. I mean before the internet was widespread we didnt have access to worldwide trade this easily from your living room.
think they are, using CNC machines and wordwide shipping for my benefit, namly buying cheap instruments.
I dont know what punter means. As I said, Ive bought Chinese jazz bass' that are great out of the box, or need a hundred dollar setup, so yes I think better copies are coming all the time.
If someone has a brand loyalty they may be hurt if someone copies their favourite bass, car, deodorant, or collectable Disney figurine, but I dont have that loyalty. I can believe Im the only one who doesnt care about it. I do think it would be better if it didnt say either "Rickenbaker" or "Made In America" on it, it is misleading. But my openness to the instrument would be the same if it said Made in China, and Chinabaker on it, I dont care, as I said before, as long as its playable.
think they are, using CNC machines and wordwide shipping for my benefit, namly buying cheap instruments.
I dont know what punter means. As I said, Ive bought Chinese jazz bass' that are great out of the box, or need a hundred dollar setup, so yes I think better copies are coming all the time.
If someone has a brand loyalty they may be hurt if someone copies their favourite bass, car, deodorant, or collectable Disney figurine, but I dont have that loyalty. I can believe Im the only one who doesnt care about it. I do think it would be better if it didnt say either "Rickenbaker" or "Made In America" on it, it is misleading. But my openness to the instrument would be the same if it said Made in China, and Chinabaker on it, I dont care, as I said before, as long as its playable.
DiabolusInMusic
Functionless Art is Merely Tolerated Vandalism
Thanks for clarifying. I was struggling to think of Chinese instruments from before the '80s, as the various Tiescos and Kents I had thought were Chinese were in fact not built there.
if you enjoy paying less for a demonstrably inferior product then more power to your elbow. You perhaps don't have the exacting setup or performance standards of many. Even proper USA-built Rickenbacker 4003 basses come with the nut slots cut laughably too high, and without the top of the net radiused in any way. To me it looks clumsy. No different from a whole raft of budget-priced instruments I've played with poor nut work.
You sing the praises and benefits of the Internet and international trade, but you won't Google a word you don't recognise that isn't part of your lexicon? This is willful ignorance on your part.
That $100 could have been put towards a better instrument that might have required less setting up. I find it hard to believe that any instrument is great 'out of the box', let alone anything that is cheap (by your own definition above) that plays great out the box. Maybe you just don't have too discerning an eye?
I don't have a brand loyalty either, but in this case this is a false dichotomy. I don't own a Rickenbacker and have no love for John Hall whatsoever. I'm not loyal to any brand; it boils down to an instrument doing its job or not. This is greatly helped if the manufacturer is actually trying to build a quality product that works as a musical instrument. The Chinabacker builders have the same mentality as somebody making fake Gucci bags to sell by the side of the road or the Disney knock-off toys built with toxic plastics. Again, they aren't trying to do you a favour or benefit you in any way; they simply would rather they received your money than a Rickenbacker, Fender or Gibson dealer. I know that a Chinabacker is an inferior product to a RIC instrument. That isn't a matter of personal opinion, a Chinese-built bootleg Rickenbacker is a demonstrably worse product.
I could go on about workers' health as well. I doubt those guys get proper PPE, I doubt the factories are properly ventilated and I doubt they get a fair ride when they wind up with respiratory infections. I doubt any of the wood comes from accredited sources, I doubt the finishes adhere to any sort of regulations and I doubt the factory's waste is handled in a sensible way. The products are cheap because they are built in squalid conditions by folks that are barely paid a penny for their efforts.
I'm glad the past 9 pages of arguing have been for nothing, I consider this thread a success!
The thought about worker's safety/health has been the best reason not to buy one of these instruments, imo. I don't care about the copyright stuff very much, but worker's rights overseas is a serious issue, and some recent legislature was passed here in the US about importing goods made with "slave labor". Not saying that these basses are the product of slave labor, but it's worth keeping in mind. Thanks @Axstar for pointing that out.
Thanks for picking up on that. Definitely food for thought. It would be hard to know the exact conditions of each Chinese factory unless you visited it (and not the happy-smiley factory they show in some promotional material).
At the end of the day I was able to buy a used MIM P bass for about £300. Aliexpress are quoting £250 for a Chinabacker 4005 bass. Factor in the import fees and it is, basically, a £300 instrument. Which do you reckon represents a better value, better quality product for a bassist? Caveat Emptor.
I couldn't bring myself to trawl through the entire 9 pages of this thread, so here's TB'er blasblas' lefty 4005 from China.
Club RickenFaker / FakenBacker - Show Your Fake Rics!
Looks pretty good....
Man, this thread sounds like a discussion about Japanese cars in a GM lunchroom in Detroit in '77
Club RickenFaker / FakenBacker - Show Your Fake Rics!
Looks pretty good....
Man, this thread sounds like a discussion about Japanese cars in a GM lunchroom in Detroit in '77
Needed some work to get there, and even more to make it a good player. Out of the box it was a below average bass (even for its price).
I don't mind the extra work, for me that's part of the fun. But if you are not into this kind thing it could be a disappointment.
What he said^^^^
The essential point being, there is no free lunch, when the Chinese QC approaches the legit market expectation, so will the prices. The more I look at the 4005 the more I'm tempted to try my own build with a less exaggerated upper horn, or maybe a combination of Ric-ish features, but not an exact match for any of it.
The essential point being, there is no free lunch, when the Chinese QC approaches the legit market expectation, so will the prices. The more I look at the 4005 the more I'm tempted to try my own build with a less exaggerated upper horn, or maybe a combination of Ric-ish features, but not an exact match for any of it.
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