That subplot is complete.
I want to know if there are any luthiers in China who meet or exceed the quality of the best luthiers we have here in the west. I see no reason why there shouldn't be any world class luthiers there, but you never know.
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Chinese Botiques?
- Thread starter cfsporn
- Start date
That subplot is complete.
I want to know if there are any luthiers in China who meet or exceed the quality of the best luthiers we have here in the west. I see no reason why there shouldn't be any world class luthiers there, but you never know.
that's a sexy looking bass. just sayin'. which is what bugs me about the chinese high end stuff like that example in your pic. looks like a jazz neck with block (painted) inlays, sexy body, nice controls... etc... and I bet it plays like absolute crap.
Most of those instruments I've picked up have been so bad it's laughable. However often they could be good with a LOT of extreme finishing and setup work, often needing new pickups as well.
but I guess that is off topic a bit. I too wonder if there are any real chinese bouqique instruments - that are worth the money and cheaper than buying from the rest of the world yet still really good and well setup etc.
Most of those instruments I've picked up have been so bad it's laughable. However often they could be good with a LOT of extreme finishing and setup work, often needing new pickups as well.
but I guess that is off topic a bit. I too wonder if there are any real chinese bouqique instruments - that are worth the money and cheaper than buying from the rest of the world yet still really good and well setup etc.
Is it "botique" or "bouquique"? I'm certain there are some great Chinese craftsmen. not sure you will ever find anything they make though. Probably pretty difficult for any small builder over there (or here for that matter) to deal with exporting.
Youdont even know how much is made in china nowadays .even those guitars you call "boutique". By some time i got a contact with the guy who called himself "luthier" and mostly what he was doing was buying chinese stratocasters ,the doing setup, repainting, sometimes some relic works. Even sometimes. HE was leaving stock middle (and even neck) pickups. Notmuch people had any warnings, maybe because his guitars were cheap anyway
Personally I'm fully aware, Actually.
I know pretty much which parts came from where on my basses. And actually lots come from Korea and Indonesia. Some from the us, and I mean parts built there from scratch, and one (the only one remaining) entirely from China.
Huge difference in workmanship from China to Indonesia and Korea. But CNC saves the day for many Chinese instruments.
Boutique with instruments sourced from China? Very few actually.
Fender is a bad guy here for blurring the marketing descriptions of basses like Geddy Lee jazz which, depending on year, could be 100% Japanese or only assembled and finished in Japan. Big difference in building costs.... Same price to customer.
But most true boutique stuff isn't related to China in any useful way.
This thread begs this question:
There have been many threads on here about what makes a $5000 boutique bass worth the extra money. Especially when you're talking about a $5K bass that looks just like a $1200 Fender.
Explanations on what justifies the extra include: higher quality wood, better electronics, better hardware, better finishes, and better setup (including fret dressing/crowning/leveling, action, rolled fingerboard, etc.). And then, of course, Customer Service.
So, the begged question is, if you buy one of these cheap Chinese basses and it's made of alder or ash and has a maple neck, and it has a nice quality exotic wood top and/or paint job that you like, and you spend a couple of hundred bucks on high end electronics, and a bit more on a bridge and tuners, and then you have a top shelf tech/luthier put the parts in and do a full setup on it (including fretwork, rolling the fingerboard, etc.), what then makes the bass less "good" than a $5K boutique bass made in the USA?
I mean, I have 2 basses at Gary Brawer's in San Francisco. He has a Plek machine and is pleking one and setting both up. His work is top notch. The setup, including pleking, is less than $300. In my case, the 2 basses are a MIA G&L and a MIA EBMM, so they are very high quality to start with. But, when he's done, they will (I expect) have all the little detail touches that my Sadowsky had. Fretwork perfect. Fret ends filed. Action lower than I can even play. Etc.. At that point, what will I be missing that I would have with a same-style $5K boutique bass? What would make it even be considered less "good" than a $1200 Fender?
I'd guess, if I bought new electronics, a bridge, and tuners, and had him install all that, in addition to the plek/setup, I'd probably have $1000 or less into the work and parts. If I started with a $200 Chinese bass with nice wood, I'd have $1200, total, out of pocket. And at that point, why would it not be just as "good" as a $5K bass that looks just the same?
What if I started with an inexpensive Japanese bass, instead? You might try to argue that a cheap Chinese bass will have inferior wood or inferior routing or a questionable truss rod, etc.. But, many people seem to think there are a lot of Japanese basses that are just as high quality wood and machining as anything we get here in the U.S.. So, what if I took one of those and replaced the electronics and hardware and had it "finished/setup" by somebody that does as good finishing and setup work as, say Roger Sadowsky? I would probably have less than $2000 in the bass at that point.
There have been many threads on here about what makes a $5000 boutique bass worth the extra money. Especially when you're talking about a $5K bass that looks just like a $1200 Fender.
Explanations on what justifies the extra include: higher quality wood, better electronics, better hardware, better finishes, and better setup (including fret dressing/crowning/leveling, action, rolled fingerboard, etc.). And then, of course, Customer Service.
So, the begged question is, if you buy one of these cheap Chinese basses and it's made of alder or ash and has a maple neck, and it has a nice quality exotic wood top and/or paint job that you like, and you spend a couple of hundred bucks on high end electronics, and a bit more on a bridge and tuners, and then you have a top shelf tech/luthier put the parts in and do a full setup on it (including fretwork, rolling the fingerboard, etc.), what then makes the bass less "good" than a $5K boutique bass made in the USA?
I mean, I have 2 basses at Gary Brawer's in San Francisco. He has a Plek machine and is pleking one and setting both up. His work is top notch. The setup, including pleking, is less than $300. In my case, the 2 basses are a MIA G&L and a MIA EBMM, so they are very high quality to start with. But, when he's done, they will (I expect) have all the little detail touches that my Sadowsky had. Fretwork perfect. Fret ends filed. Action lower than I can even play. Etc.. At that point, what will I be missing that I would have with a same-style $5K boutique bass? What would make it even be considered less "good" than a $1200 Fender?
I'd guess, if I bought new electronics, a bridge, and tuners, and had him install all that, in addition to the plek/setup, I'd probably have $1000 or less into the work and parts. If I started with a $200 Chinese bass with nice wood, I'd have $1200, total, out of pocket. And at that point, why would it not be just as "good" as a $5K bass that looks just the same?
What if I started with an inexpensive Japanese bass, instead? You might try to argue that a cheap Chinese bass will have inferior wood or inferior routing or a questionable truss rod, etc.. But, many people seem to think there are a lot of Japanese basses that are just as high quality wood and machining as anything we get here in the U.S.. So, what if I took one of those and replaced the electronics and hardware and had it "finished/setup" by somebody that does as good finishing and setup work as, say Roger Sadowsky? I would probably have less than $2000 in the bass at that point.
Thats right ... at least for someone that its in the game like you guys. Rookie bassist that doesnt see any difference between Hohner and Hofner would actually fall apart.
A friend of mine has got a handmade stratoid from 90's - the main differences were no pickguard, floyd and 2 control knobs. Neck was ok, but the rest was horrible. He started to scratch the paint off - which wasnt paint anyway, because it happened to be the epoxy resin - sometimes even 3mm fat ... The body was made from 3 parts, one had a big hole where the gnarl was, and filled with putty. Another part has lots of small borer holes, also filled with putty ...
For the makers defense the guitar comes from the times, when luthiers supplies werent easy to get in Poland. But what about people who bought his strats ? Mostly everyone saids "not bad sounding, skinny neck, plays well". And thats the worst part. For many young guitarist (at least here) except for the good trade mark logo on headstock they need only skinny neck, info about exotic wood like mahogany (which in fact dont have to be mahogany, just tell them it is !), high output pickups, and their fav color. Nothing more. Thats why I seen recently some fake LP's sold for the hard cash, and I believe that no one returned it back ...
By "boutique" I mean top notch woods, premium/innovative electronics, flawless construction, small team, and excellent support. In other words, pretty much what you get from an American, European, or Japanese boutique. Theoretically, there is nothing stopping such an operation from starting up in The People's Republic. I just want to know if this has happened yet.
- Jun 3, 2009
- 3,330
- 398
- Disclosures
- Bassgearu, Music Industry Consulting and Sales. Tech 21, NBE Corp, Sonosphere.
There are only a tiny amount of boutique luthiers in Japan, H. Noble being the most noted. That is after 40 or so years of us teaching them the art. While there may be some hidden gem, most of what I find in China is on par with 1960's made in Japan stuff. They are about pumping them out not art.
What you won't find are guys hand selecting perfectly matched tops, no one slaving to make neck pockets that are so tight you can't get a microscopic flea in them, no one watching the perfect placement of the bridge and nuts and frets.
Will there someday be someone in China like that? Not until the vestiges of communism are gone. There is no room in communist society for master craftsman.
What you won't find are guys hand selecting perfectly matched tops, no one slaving to make neck pockets that are so tight you can't get a microscopic flea in them, no one watching the perfect placement of the bridge and nuts and frets.
Will there someday be someone in China like that? Not until the vestiges of communism are gone. There is no room in communist society for master craftsman.
They've got this brand called Causeway Bass in Hong Kong (at least I think they're from Hong Kong, the name suggests so). I've seen a few hanging at the local music store, from the looks of it, very nice finishing, exotic woods, good hardware. But since I'm not into boutique basses I never had the urge to try one. Maybe other could chime in.
But honestly, the price tag was quite scary, around US$5000,- to US$6000,- (the ones hanging in the shop).
But honestly, the price tag was quite scary, around US$5000,- to US$6000,- (the ones hanging in the shop).
I've not heard of any. But there are the Western boutique makers with Chinese-made instruments at some almost boutique prices. When buying my first 5-string I spent most of my time trying to choose between Overwater and MTD - but the Chinese-made equivalents, at around the price of a MIM Fender. But start looking at something like a Dingwall Combustion and it's more expensive than MIA Fender (in the UK at least).
Spoken like a man who truely knows nothing about China...
Hey Beano!
Neighbors on both sides of me are Chinese families. Not guitars, but they do have objects from China that are of such amazing quality and detail that it proves to me that probably some of the best master craftsmen in the world live in China.
- Jun 3, 2009
- 3,330
- 398
- Disclosures
- Bassgearu, Music Industry Consulting and Sales. Tech 21, NBE Corp, Sonosphere.
Beano I am there all the time. When you are there it is impossible to forget it is not a free society despite the fact that Coke is everywhere.
That is simply not true, there are plenty of master craftsmen in communist countries. It is just like everywhere else, there is a lot more mass produced low quality stuff around than there are "boutique" items. I own several Soviet era model aeroplane engines that were made by such craftsmen. Some of them were homemade out of necessity because they could not buy them commercially and others made by people that were sponsored by the state for top fliers to win world championships. Those engines are just an example, communists like nice things too.
Keep in mind of course that they have been making stringed instruments for over a thousand years longer than any US made "art".
That has to be the most ignorant post I've seen on TB in years.
Congratulations. Well done.
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