Chinese Botiques?

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Keep the politics out of here, guys.

 

[JimmyThunder]

How is it "politics" when there isn't any mention of government? If anything it's a discussion on culture, tradition, and manufacturing capabilities.

edit: I suppose the one brief mention of "communism" kinda qualifies as politics...but nobody responded to that

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

There were several responses to it. Either way, this thread is on thin ice- keep to the original topic guys.

 

[Roy Vogt]

If you look at the build quality of Shen and Christopher Double Basses, there are some great Chinese instruments.
I have been checking out the Causeway Bass Youtube channel. They did show at NAMM 2013 and seem really good.
I have personal experience with Utrera Basses from Venezuela, so I would say a great bass can come from anywhere personally.

 

[cfsporn]

There are only a tiny amount of boutique luthiers in Japan, H. Noble being the most noted. That is after 40 or so years of us teaching them the art. While there may be some hidden gem, most of what I find in China is on par with 1960's made in Japan stuff. They are about pumping them out not art.

What you won't find are guys hand selecting perfectly matched tops, no one slaving to make neck pockets that are so tight you can't get a microscopic flea in them, no one watching the perfect placement of the bridge and nuts and frets.

Will there someday be someone in China like that? Not until the vestiges of communism are gone. There is no room in communist society for master craftsman.

Really? I know they build airplanes and computer components in China, both of which require much more precision than a bass guitar (no pun intended).

 

[cfsporn]

you already did a thread for this.

Uh... No I didn't. The closest I came was the Fauxdera thread which, as my OP said, has no relation to this thread.

 

[ggvicviper]

I would like to add something to this. While not being Chinese myself, having a fiancee being 1st generation born Chinese American with Chinese family here, and having good friends (and one ex) who are Chinese or Taiwanese certainly helps.

The instruments made in those Chinese factories that are making some say "China won't produce boutique" and so on are largely not made by luthiers. They are low-income factory workers who are doing a day job. The people working at Foxconn assembling iPhones and iPads for Apple are largely not electrical engineers, either. They are mainly factory workers in stressful environments cranking out what they are told.

China HAS been making stringed instruments for longer than anyone can imagine. Hell, they have been making musical instruments and tools in general for longer than most civilizations. They are most certainly capable of boutique quality - take a look at other Chinese artisan goods, fine cuisine, herbal medicine (which takes extreme precision), and maybe this 5-string double bass on eBay.

 

[Hapa]

That subplot is complete.


I want to know if there are any luthiers in China who meet or exceed the quality of the best luthiers we have here in the west. I see no reason why there shouldn't be any world class luthiers there, but you never know.

Chinese manufacturing is no different from American manufacturing except the Chinese are usually much more efficient at it. How they are more efficient at it is not the question. Any business owner will look at the cost of manufacturing to determine how the business is going to run. Most guitar companies make less than 500 guitars a year. With high end bass builders where 3-4 companies may make 500 basses withing a year. It is simply not worth the effort to get manufacturing on large scale. Buying lots of wood at a time, drums of lacquer and the man hours. Exportation, receiving, setup, packaging, and then a sale. That being said, If a corporate giant gave the specs of an American boutique and wanted that quality the chinese or any other factory will build to that spec with an appropriate price...likely less a unit than small scale. Look at Apple product there specs are tighter than any guitar.

Now the other interpretation of the question...A chinese builder, small time, selling basses in the US. It has been mentioned but export of Chinese products meant for the Chinese is really tough. Chinese manufactured products made for export can't be sold within the country without outrageous taxes. Just one of the many ways China keeps its economy protected. Same thing in Japan... thats why the Top end SR, Gary Willis Sig and Gerald Veasley Ibanez jump in price when sold in the US. Or the Made in Japan vs crafted in Japan Fenders.

Free market economy does come in play here. A business man in China would find it very difficult to tell the Government that he is supporting business by selling less than 100 basses a year, and that few would be ever sold within the country. Bass guitar is not popular in China. Keep in mind that when you play in a band you have to get your setlist approved by the government and a lot of rock and roll is banned... even in a marching band "saints go marching in" was banned because it has military association. People don't really own PA equipment, think karaoke systems with a handle as the typical backline. Where does a boutique bass fit in that environment?

 

[Turnaround]

FWIW, I do a fair bit of work for a distributor that imports a line of string instruments from China. The company manufacturing the instruments is based in Britain and they wholly own their plant in China. The quality of the manufacture is pretty good, but there are a surprising number of problems with the instruments when they arrive here.

The problems are not in the manufacture, but in the shipping. They are sent by the container load from China to North America onboard ships. If you've ever seen a container ship you know that containers of goods are piled on the deck. Those on the top of the pile are not protected from the sun. The manufacturer put a hi-lo thermometer in the case of one of the instruments and checked it when it arrived on the west coast of America. The high temperature in the shipping case inside the container was over 140 degrees F. Who knows how long it was subject to that kind of heat?

The results are warped fingerboards, cracked instruments, open glue seams, etc. The shipping companies will not guarantee that a container will not be put on the top of the pile. You take your chances. Which means the manufacturer, the importer, the retailer, and the end user all take their chances with these instruments. But because of the cheap labour, the instruments can be sold at very attractive prices. You would have a hard time finding locally made of this quality of manufacture anywhere near the price.

A shrinking world dilemma.

 

[Hapa]

I am curious now if at any point an American bass company, say if guitar center decided to make there own line of high end basses would ever commit to giving specs to lets say Cor-Tek at an $3600 price point US. In a 10,000 unit order...like multiple colors in every store would you think that would really put the hurt on us American luthiers? Difference in manufacturing costs being the only difference theoretically. As a consumer where you could pay that to someone local or at least within the country would you goto a national chain because of price and return policy? If bass guitar in the US was a better seller then this would have already happened. Its why we have the boutiques we have now. With little demand for extremely high quality basses, the supply is filled by small businesses owners that have pushed the boundaries of quality and excellence.

 

[Wyattsgroove]

0)

 

[cfsporn]

I am curious now if at any point an American bass company, say if guitar center decided to make there own line of high end basses would ever commit to giving specs to lets say Cor-Tek at an $3600 price point US. In a 10,000 unit order...like multiple colors in every store would you think that would really put the hurt on us American luthiers? Difference in manufacturing costs being the only difference theoretically. As a consumer where you could pay that to someone local or at least within the country would you goto a national chain because of price and return policy? If bass guitar in the US was a better seller then this would have already happened. Its why we have the boutiques we have now. With little demand for extremely high quality basses, the supply is filled by small businesses owners that have pushed the boundaries of quality and excellence.

In theory, a Chinese boutique bass wouldn't be sent by the container load.

 

[Munjibunga]

Chinese manufacturing is no different from American manufacturing except the Chinese are usually much more efficient at it. How they are more efficient at it is not the question. Any business owner will look at the cost of manufacturing to determine how the business is going to run.

Are you kidding? It seems as though you're defining efficiency as producing the item for the lowest cost to the manufacturer. How they accomplish that is the whole question. So let's see ... how do the Chinese accomplish that "efficiency"? (Hint: think about the highest cost to virtually all employers.)

 

[StuartV]

I am curious now if at any point an American bass company, say if guitar center decided to make there own line of high end basses would ever commit to giving specs to lets say Cor-Tek at an $3600 price point US. In a 10,000 unit order.

The answer is No. The reason: Because they are in business to make a profit.

Why would they not make a profit on a bass like that? Because the reason the boutiques can sell basses at the prices they do is, in part, precisely because they are so hard to get.

After you get to somewhere around $2000 - 2500 in price for a bass, the differences that justify higher prices are so minute that only a fraction of even the people who buy them can REALLY tell a difference. The rest of the people who buy them are really just buying the name and the knowledge that true experts agree on the superiority of their instruments. If somebody goes and mass produces basses to offer for sale at $3600, they're just not going to sell that many of them. The majority of people who would spend $3600 on a bass are only going to do so when they know they are getting a certain level of quality AND they're getting a boutique name. And there's not that many people that would spend $3600 on a bass in the first place!

It's the same reason mass-produced Corvette Z06s totally match the performance of cars that are made in much smaller numbers and sell for $200 - 300K, and the Z06 still sells for $75K. If Chevrolet said "the Z06 is just as good, in every way, as this Ferrarri xxx, and so we are offering it for $200,000" and they made enough to put one at every dealership, they would lose their butts!

 

[DeathFromBelow]

Are you kidding? It seems as though you're defining efficiency as producing the item for the lowest cost to the manufacturer. How they accomplish that is the whole question. So let's see ... how do the Chinese accomplish that "efficiency"? (Hint: think about the highest cost to virtually all employers.)

You're thinking about slave labour, right? I dunno, but the Chinese has the fastest growing middle-class on the planet, and communism in China seems to exist pretty much only on paper. I have a feeling slave labour in China is quite over-played, It's more of a myth kept in place to make us westerners feel better about ourselves than anything else IMO, keeps us working stiffs showing up at our dead-end jobs every day...

 

[pudgychef]

There are only a tiny amount of boutique luthiers in Japan, H. Noble being the most noted. That is after 40 or so years of us teaching them the art. While there may be some hidden gem, most of what I find in China is on par with 1960's made in Japan stuff. They are about pumping them out not art.

What you won't find are guys hand selecting perfectly matched tops, no one slaving to make neck pockets that are so tight you can't get a microscopic flea in them, no one watching the perfect placement of the bridge and nuts and frets.

Will there someday be someone in China like that? Not until the vestiges of communism are gone. There is no room in communist society for master craftsman.

funny that in the 80s the Fender guys 'wept' when they saw the quality of MIJ instruments being made and wondered why they couldn't produce items at the same level...that is almost 40yrs ago...

Keep in mind of course that they have been making stringed instruments for over a thousand years longer than any US made "art".

or check out a Bacchus or Moon etc etc....

 

[TRichardsbass]

That has to be the most ignorant post I've seen on TB in years.

Congratulations. Well done.

First bmc the electric guitar started here. Post WWII "made in japan" items were bulk crap mostly. Early Japanese made guitars even more so. Were there always skilled master craftsman in Japan? Absolutely. Were they making electric guitars? No. We didnt teach them art but we taught them the art of the electric guitar. H. Noble was one of the best and today he makes boutique instruments. His bread and butter for years and to this day is high quantity manufactured guitar goods.

Also bmc "China" can be defined by who and where you are. Taiwan is China. Hong Kong is China. So are every factory town we know. But they are all different. I am far from ignorant. However there is no demand in the Chinese society and economy for a boutique electric bass made in China. And mass wealth is not made making boutique grade instruments. The rising middle class of China wants access to non-Chinese goods. They like their Soviet counterparts were fed only Chinese made crap and Chinese only brands for over 70 years now. So being a boutique Chinese builder has no great market where the biggest market should be.

Also let us not forget that you are not completely free in China to pursue whatever you want to do. In the USA we are free to do that so we do create artists everyday.

The rise of machines and efficiently made goods in any society diminishes its master craftsman and artists. I defy you to find an expert tailor in the US. Even Savile Row is losing a bulk of them. Driven by the same forces we see here. I can buy a great mass produced bass for much less then the boutique art so the market is small and the patrons even smaller.

However you wish to characterize my comments fine. But unlike many I have actually been to these places and lived in them. I dont take my cues from TV or news. Or Bon Jovi.

 

[dkelley]

Those are really good points and from everything I've been told by friends who do or have lived there I believe it's quite accurate.

Anyhow... Based on my own friends from China and Japan etc... I believe he's correct that they prefer big foreign brands if you have the money. I'm sure there are excellent boutique capable luthiers there but doubt that they have a useful business model as a boutique that would be successful in marketing outside of a tiny elite local customer base. Like building instruments for important figures or similar or just the local super wealthy elite.

Marketing that outside of China would be hard..... Travellers wouldn't drop buy to get one, web communication would be complicated, and there is a stigma against Chinese build quality even within China let alone here that prevents easy marketing success.

 

[SolarMan]

I don't know how others see it, but I see China as a nuclear powered locomotive that just left the station.

I bet that within the next ten years we see Chinese manufactured cars and pharmaceuticals in the US market. These will both be of outstanding quality.

And that will be just the beginning.

Just look at the tourbillon watches coming out of China. The Swiss are not laughing any longer. In fact, they are starting to get worried.

If you don't know what a tourbillon is, it is probably the most boo-teek products on the planet.

 

[ggvicviper]

Also bmc "China" can be defined by who and where you are. Taiwan is China. Hong Kong is China. So are every factory town we know. But they are all different. I am far from ignorant.

Well, then you should know that things made in Taiwan are clearly marked "Made in Taiwan", and things made in Hong Kong are marked as "Made in Hong Kong" and things made in mainland China are clearly marked "Made in China", and this rings true for basses as well, having owned instruments from both mainland China and Taiwan. I've never seen a Hong Kong made bass. In terms of interntional politics, yes, they are the same. That will not apply to goods, however - any trip to the Chinese supermarket will show you that after looking at a few boxes of snacks - and certainly don't bring it up to people like that. Besides, as Bryan said:

Keep the politics out of here, guys.

...and that can of worms is certainly pretty political.

Also let us not forget that you are not completely free in China to pursue whatever you want to do. In the USA we are free to do that so we do create artists everyday.

This is the greatest point you can make, and the most relevant to the discussion. I don't agree with everything you wrote by a mile, but this - 100% agree, as long as we are talking about mainland China. If I don't have a few friends who can verify it that enough, certainly my father in law to be, a once chef for the Chinese navy and someone who escaped China during Mao's cultural revolution, can.

However you wish to characterize my comments fine. But unlike many I have actually been to these places and lived in them. I dont take my cues from TV or news. Or Bon Jovi.

Ha! Been to Taiwan twice. Wanna go to Hong Kong next. Father in law to be wants us to go to China with him to see the extended family in his Hakka village. Currently engaged to a 1st generation born Chinese American, who's father swam across the waters to reach Hong Kong from China in the late 60's. I was almost engaged to a Taiwanese woman, have several friends from China and Taiwan (none from Hong Kong though - but hey this is why we make friends on Talkbass). I have some deep roots in there, and a good understanding of that history, even if I am not Chinese myself.

Sorry Bryan if I couldn't keep the politics out, but I tried my best.