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Chinese knock-off basses
- Thread starter Pete Langford
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Agreed... Plus I despise selective enforcement. Either it's illegal or it's not. Don't sue some small luthier for building a copy, but then let Univox, ESP, Hoffner, and whoever else off the hook, because they're politically connected.
Like I said, I found fake Fender parts for sale once and supplied the evidence to Fender, they had no interest in pursuing it. So as far as I'm concerned, they should be legally waiving their rights to pursue anyone for any counterfeit at that point...
But as usual, they only want to enforce the fakes that hurt them, not the ones that hurt musicians.
Gibson is no better...
The government will never pursue the buyer, unless they were buying a bulk lot for resale, and my experience as someone who works in the field to which you're referring, is that the only time that they enforce any of it is when they either have to justify their jobs, get caught ignoring it on CNN, or are up for re-election.
I've turned counterfeit money, credit card fraud, and identity theft over to the State Attorney General, and they won't even look at it, so it's not likely that they'd even give you an audience to discuss a Fender neck plate... especially when Fender as a company isn't willing to press charges against the manufacturer!
And that is the key!
From what I've gathered here though, it seems that there are two discussions at hand...
Chinese gear, and counterfeit gear. Counterfeit gear is just no good ever, because whoever built it has already established that they have no morals or ethics, and they're intentionally committing a crime and trying to deceive you.
A knock off on the other hand could easily be a great instrument, which was simply built to look like another... and while it may infringe upon the copyright protection of Gibson... if Gibson doesn't care, why would you?
Back in the 80's, I remember a Japanese Univox copy of Jimi Hendrix's strat. They're probably worth a boat load now.
Hoffner, Cort, Univox, ESP, Gibson, Fender... at one point all got in trouble for trying to copy someone elses something... but if the quality was there, then you benefited as a consumer.
If you went out today and met a girl who looked exactly like Jennifer Anniston, would you not date her because it wasn't really her? Now on the other hand, if it was a really guy, that would be a different story!
Copy's and fakes are not the same.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
What I am reading is a lot of people trying to torture out a justification for them the buy counterfeits. It's up to Fender/Ric/whever to decide whether there to go after anyone, and waiving their rights in one instance does NOT mean they have waived them or lost the protection. A lawsuit like that will easily cost the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
If you don't want to follow the law, that's up to you. But don't try asserting the moral/legal/ethical high ground when you aren't on it. And if you don't get paid on a gig because the bar decides your rights don't count, oh well...
If you don't want to follow the law, that's up to you. But don't try asserting the moral/legal/ethical high ground when you aren't on it. And if you don't get paid on a gig because the bar decides your rights don't count, oh well...
Counterfeits are just that, trying to get your money usually building something as cheaply as possible, So you can get it on stage or in front of your friends and make them think you just bought a $1500 guitar, when it is really a POS $150 guitar. Its all about fooling some one.
Builders with their own name are trying to a better their industry market, to bring an acceptable product to market. They are trying to get respect enough to build a business. Generally try to build a more quality oriented instrument but at a price savings that make their item a worth while investment or an entry level item. Essentially they are not out to fool some one.
Big difference. Of course there are exceptions.
My old 70s Japan Electra Les Paul Bass was not trying to fool anyone, it had Electra inlaid on the head-stock (Even if the script inlay they used took on a Gibson style look). It was a pretty well built bass, nice binding on the body and ebony frettboard. At the time, and I played it a few years, and even updated it some and played it a few more.
My Micheal Kelly Flat top acoustic is a 4 string good acoustic for just sitting outside on the Patio, but it is a cheap Micheal Kelly. Works great to just pick up and work out a song or a run without plugging into and amp or anything and the thing stays in tune.
My Dean Pace EUB isn't the greatest, but seems to be a decent toy for a pseudo upright thing and has a pretty functional sound, but it has Dean written on it. It is fun, and easier to move around and leave in a studio than my 3/4 sized upright.
They are all useful in their own right and were affordable, and are still in the collection. But they were not out to fool an audience into think they were anything but what they are. To me that shows a little integrity in the business. And not what seems to the happening in this crooked counterfeit market.
Builders with their own name are trying to a better their industry market, to bring an acceptable product to market. They are trying to get respect enough to build a business. Generally try to build a more quality oriented instrument but at a price savings that make their item a worth while investment or an entry level item. Essentially they are not out to fool some one.
Big difference. Of course there are exceptions.
My old 70s Japan Electra Les Paul Bass was not trying to fool anyone, it had Electra inlaid on the head-stock (Even if the script inlay they used took on a Gibson style look). It was a pretty well built bass, nice binding on the body and ebony frettboard. At the time, and I played it a few years, and even updated it some and played it a few more.
My Micheal Kelly Flat top acoustic is a 4 string good acoustic for just sitting outside on the Patio, but it is a cheap Micheal Kelly. Works great to just pick up and work out a song or a run without plugging into and amp or anything and the thing stays in tune.
My Dean Pace EUB isn't the greatest, but seems to be a decent toy for a pseudo upright thing and has a pretty functional sound, but it has Dean written on it. It is fun, and easier to move around and leave in a studio than my 3/4 sized upright.
They are all useful in their own right and were affordable, and are still in the collection. But they were not out to fool an audience into think they were anything but what they are. To me that shows a little integrity in the business. And not what seems to the happening in this crooked counterfeit market.
Yes! Well said. Big difference between a replica or a copy and a counterfeit and this difference usually carries over in terms of the quality of the instrument itself. Tokai Les Pauls of the Lawsuit era are terrific instruments.
As an aside, if I met a girl who liked like Jennifer Anniston, I wouldn't date her even if she was Jennifer Anniston, just not my type. lol...
Agreed... Somehow this thread seems to be confusing the two. A counterfeit Rolex would be garbage, but a Casio GShock, which looked like a Rolex would be ethically, financially, and mechanically okay!
There's a big difference between trying to intentionally trying to fool someone and trying to emulate a successful product.
You have a lot of good points, and hopefully you see my distinction. I detect counterfeits for a living, so I can really only comment from a legal/ law enforcement perspective. We get screwed all day long due to corporate red tape.
The value of a bass to me is its function and style, not its brand. I really don't care what the sticker says, as long as the sticker looks cool. If it meets these requirements, I would buy it if I wanted it and could afford it. I experience no guilt because of this. I have more important things to worry about than the well being of a corporation.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
And I assume your pension/401K/portfolio is invested in stocks or bonds? In that case, the "well being of a corporation" is YOUR well being.
Assumption is only that. Your reasons may be valid for you, but they are not mine.
I work in music, production and entertainment, which is neither manufacturing nor law enforcement. This issue simply doesn't concern me. I have more important things to worry about than a corporation's IP. Corporations have legal departments that get paid to handle those issues. I don't work in that office.
This is not an ethical issue for me at all, it's just a quality vs price issue from a buyer's point of view. If the bass performs well and the price is competitive, to me it's a good bass.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
Are you saying you don't have any retirement savings, or that it is not invested in stocks or bonds of companies? I would bet 90% of the people here do. Never mind these companies are our employers. You are in entertainment, so the well being of these companies affect you. Also, IP of artists and production companies directly affect your profession.
Sorry, these "this doesn't matter to me" arguments are nothing but excuses to to try to justify people buying counterfeits.
As I said, if the law doesn't count, don't complain if you don't get your paycheck, or get paid for a gig - your well being isn't important to your employer or the venue.
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A friend of mine went on one of those whirlwind trips where a bunch of people hop on a bus and go on a 36 hour trip to NYC and shop til they drop and then hop back on the bus and go home. He went shopping and came back with a jacket that said "Northface" or what ever the brand is on it but was pretty sure that that it was a fake. He tells the story of a guy on the bus that had bought a watch and was looking at it on the way back. He asked "how do you spell Rolex" and someone said " R O L E X ". He looked at his and it was spelled "R O L E C K S". Bummer. I personally have seen batteries at the local Chinese restaurant with all of that stuff they sell in addition to food that said "Durasell" on them with the black and copper colored bodies, so the intent to deceive is there.
If it were me personally, I wouldnt have any issue from an ethics standpoint buying a Ric copy as long as it didn't say "Rickenbacker" on the truss rod cover. To me, it's no different that buying an SX jazz bass.
My .02
BnB
If it were me personally, I wouldnt have any issue from an ethics standpoint buying a Ric copy as long as it didn't say "Rickenbacker" on the truss rod cover. To me, it's no different that buying an SX jazz bass.
My .02
BnB
@buldog5151bass
Thank you for your opinion. It's interesting to find someone so passionate about the subject!
Thank you for your opinion. It's interesting to find someone so passionate about the subject!
Here's what I've gathered from this thread.
It's not unethical to completely make and sell a guitar that is a clear-cut ripoff of another maker's guitar, as long as you use your own headstock decal.
It's not unethical to completely make and sell a guitar that is a clear-cut ripoff of another maker's guitar, as long as you use your own headstock decal.
To answer the original question. With the amount of time it took to get a partial refund on my mail order Chinese bass and the wait for shipping, and the useless bass shaped object which now lingers, I don't recommend it.
I would MUCH rather have enjoyed my time going to pawn shops(I'd get to see weird stuff) and private sales(meeting other musicians) to find a nice used bass for a similar price.
