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Chinese knock-off basses

@buldog5151bass Do you truly believe 90% of the members here have stock portfolios?
Quite honestly I've been a very busy working musician my whole life. I did I spend 20 yrs in construction. I was playing hundreds of gigs a year at the same time in the Bay Area. It did not afford me that luxury. So, let's just say, from my perspective, you're dead wrong.
As to this issue, I won't buy any dhgate crap, (counterfeit) but I would buy a well built chinese MTD.
I am curious to know if these things are fakes are ever confiscated at the border.
 
@buldog5151bass
As to this issue, I won't buy any dhgate crap, (counterfeit) but I would buy a well built chinese MTD.
I am curious to know if these things are fakes are ever confiscated at the border.
I've read that this occasionally happens, on a random basis, when they are looking for something else. Thankfully, US Customs is more interested in contraband drugs, weapons, or explosives than fake basses. If they are confiscated, you are out your money.
 
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@buldog5151bass Do you truly believe 90% of the members here have stock portfolios?
Quite honestly I've been a very busy working musician my whole life. I did I spend 20 yrs in construction. I was playing hundreds of gigs a year at the same time in the Bay Area. It did not afford me that luxury. So, let's just say, from my perspective, you're dead wrong.
As to this issue, I won't buy any dhgate crap, (counterfeit) but I would buy a well built chinese MTD.
I am curious to know if these things are fakes are ever confiscated at the border.

Read my post, don't cherry pick. I said 401k, pension, or portfolio. If you have any kind of retirement account, which I assume you do if you have been working for 20 years, it if invested in stocks and bonds. I think it is a safe bet to say the vast majority of those here have something other than the money if their checking account.

I've said it before, I have no issue with the country, I would buy a Chinese bass if I liked it. I would not buy a counterfeit, regardless of origin.

And yes, they do catch these at the border (but not often enough). There was a big bust several years ago where they seized almost 200 of them in NJ.
 
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Read my post, don't cherry pick. I said 401k, pension, or portfolio. If you have any kind of retirement account, which I assume you do if you have been working for 20 years, it if invested in stocks and bonds. I think it is a safe bet to say the vast majority of those here have something other than the money if their checking account.

I've said it before, I have no issue with the country, I would buy a Chinese bass if I liked it. I would not buy a counterfeit, regardless of origin.

And yes, they do catch these at the border (but not often enough). There was a big bust several years ago where they seized almost 200 of them in NJ.
As well they should any blatantly counterfeited products. Be it guitars, handbags, shoes, whatever. Not if they are just very similar items marked with their own name on them.
 
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Read my post, don't cherry pick. I said 401k, pension, or portfolio. If you have any kind of retirement account, which I assume you do if you have been working for 20 years, it if invested in stocks and bonds. I think it is a safe bet to say the vast majority of those here have something other than the money if their checking account.

I've said it before, I have no issue with the country, I would buy a Chinese bass if I liked it. I would not buy a counterfeit, regardless of origin.

And yes, they do catch these at the border (but not often enough). There was a big bust several years ago where they seized almost 200 of them in NJ.
Ok, newbie question: how often do these threads devolve into some tangential dick-measuring contest?

1) 50% of the time
2) 85% of the time
3) All of the fuggin time

I can't possibly be the only jerk who finds this aspect of TB kinda tedious.
 
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I wouldn't buy a counterfeit instrument because it's unlikely that there's any quality control. Maybe there is but you'd have to play it first. I have bought one of these:

maxresdefault.jpg
 
Counterfeit gear is just no good ever, because whoever built it has already established that they have no morals or ethics, and they're intentionally committing a crime and trying to deceive you.

That's going a bit far. Just because someone is counterfeiting goods does not mean they are necessarily bereft of all morals. Whether it is a crime or not depends on local definitions, for example, patented stuff I worked on needed to be patented in Europe and the USA to be fully protected.

If you go back to the 1950s and 1960s, though, many bass manufacturers failed to apply for design patents, or failed to defend trademarks, which means that the shapes and features of basses cannot be defended in law. Back in the 1960s especially, the IP protections didn't exist in places like Japan, although they would be covered in import into the USA. Membership of the WTO should change things now, though.
 
That's going a bit far. Just because someone is counterfeiting goods does not mean they are necessarily bereft of all morals. Whether it is a crime or not depends on local definitions, for example, patented stuff I worked on needed to be patented in Europe and the USA to be fully protected.

If you go back to the 1950s and 1960s, though, many bass manufacturers failed to apply for design patents, or failed to defend trademarks, which means that the shapes and features of basses cannot be defended in law. Back in the 1960s especially, the IP protections didn't exist in places like Japan, although they would be covered in import into the USA. Membership of the WTO should change things now, though.

Good points... but you may have missed my earlier statement, that copy and counterfeit are simply not the same... and to me, the scenario you're describing is copy/ and or accident. That's just a far cry from intentional, which is why it's the separation line for civil vs. legal, and misdemeanor vs. felony.

No doubt that you're correct on that front.

For any of you that have followed any of my other posts, you'd already know that I'm very strict about fact vs opinion. I love and want both, I respect both, and I follow both, but, I never confuse or mix the two... which is rare on the internet, TB included.

I love to hear everyone's experience and perspective, even when it differs with mine, but when they disguise it as fact, I move on immediately. You're not doing that, we're just talking about two very different things.

I reiterate that I can only speak from a law enforcement perspective, meaning, I don't state anything as fact unless I could prove it in a courtroom. To me, if you put a Gucci label on something and then try to sell it as a Gucci product, for a Gucci price, I don't see how that could ever be ethical, and certainly by law, it's not. This is a fact.

In your scenario, Gucci has let patent run out, or failed to adequetly patent their design, so another manufacturer could make a similar design legally, and that would cause many to question their ethics... but they'd have no leg to stand on.

All I can say is that if I bring a counterfeiter into a courtroom, and I have six cases of Fender neck plates as evidence: When I subpoena Fender and they testify that they didn't make the neck plates, the case will be closed. Now on the other hand, If I bring ESP to court and say that they counterfeited the Stratocaster, but the headstock says ESP... I just wasted the tax payers time and money, because in a battle of opinions, I'll lose against ESP's attorneys.

Sounds like you work in the legal end of manufacturing, and I work for the law enforcement side of govt! For me, it's all about educating consumers. I saw this thread getting of topic several days ago, and I merely wanted to point out that copies and counterfeits were not the same. Thanks for your perspective!
 
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I wouldn't buy a counterfeit instrument because it's unlikely that there's any quality control. Maybe there is but you'd have to play it first. I have bought one of these:

View attachment 2982205
Exactly! If my goal was to fool you into buying a KIA with a Mercedes body on it... do you really think I put Mobil One Full Synthetic in the engine and then topped if the tank with Super Unleaded?
 
Personally, I TRY to avoid supporting the Chinese economy---almost impossible---but I try. and in least the areas of basses, I will never buy one no matter what. YMMV.

I love a post like yours! It supports everything that I teach... and it represents the American way at's it's finest.

This is your opinion, you're not trying to pass it off as fact... you're simply saying how you feel. That's what it means to have freedom.

I agree with you 100%... and I do own a Chinese bass. I had no choice to get that which I wanted... but I'd put my money where my mouth was too. If an American WOULD make the bass that I wanted, I'd pay triple for it!

Well spoken!
 
I'll toss in another opinion regarding "buy American" beliefs - if you're supporting an American manufacturer who makes non-competitive substandard goods (think US automakers in the 70s and 80s), you're not doing those American workers any great favors, you're actually doing them and the country a disservice and harm. Manufacturers who feel entitled to put out crap simply because they're located in the USA and can play the "buy American" card deserve to go down in flames. IMHO.
 
Lol... I have to plug G&L here... That's what I play, and I have to say, it's a straight up Fender copy, 100% legal, way better than a Fender, in WHATEVER color that you want, in 4 or 5 string, with whatever neck profile that you want, for less money!

You order it on the phone from California, and when it comes in 5 weeks, you're the only guy on the planet with a USA custom. Not bad for $1200

And!!! Their import line is regarded on TB as the best out there!
 
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I'll toss in another opinion regarding "buy American" beliefs - if you're supporting an American manufacturer who makes non-competitive substandard goods (think US automakers in the 70s and 80s), you're not doing those American workers any great favors, you're actually doing them and the country a disservice and harm. Manufacturers who feel entitled to put out crap simply because they're located in the USA and can play the "buy American" card deserve to go down in flames. IMHO.

LOVE IT! Yes I always love to hear people defending the US automakers... Buy a Chevy made in Mexico or Toyota made in America? Man is anyone even paying attention?

Chevy started "subbing out their work in the mid 70's. Up until that point, all of their parts were made by their Delco Divisions, in America. By 1978, Chevy parts were being made in Canada... and while we didn't realize it then, that was the beginning of the end!

Nothing against Canada... but it's not America, so to say that the car was made in America is a stretch. It's made in Mexico and then assembled here... Same as Toyota and KIA, and they both employ 100% American Autoworkers Union.

Like I said before, when we put saving a buck over all else, we allowed this to happen. That's my two cent's.
 
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Gotta 1982 USA G&L 2000 Frettless. It was the brainchild from Leo Fender and George Fullerton. The original Fender guys. And while it looks similar in body shape to a Fender P bass, had a lot of modern changes including special neck and frettboard construction design, better PUPS, better electronics, and new designed locking bridge. And would play rings around a P bass. Still have that baby today, and she is a much better player than a P Bass

It was never a copy of a Fender P bass.
G&L 2000.jpg

I haven;t tried their import tribute versions, but I'm sure they maintain quality control. As G&L is still a very reputable company even though Leo has now passed.
 
It really just comes down to quality control when sourcing out of country.

Big name companies can generally enforce production quality standards when they buy manufacturing contracts from fabricators in foreign countries, the individual buyer cannot. This creates a market where small buyers can be sold junk-products with very few repercussions. That's what happened to me.

-I suspect that if I had a good friend in China making a purchase for me I could find a very nice Chinese made bass. I have nothing against China.

As a random side note, the Indonesian Sire I just bought is of outstanding quality and very low price. Highly recommend these basses.
 
If it were me personally, I wouldnt have any issue from an ethics standpoint buying a Ric copy as long as it didn't say "Rickenbacker" on the truss rod cover. To me, it's no different that buying an SX jazz bass.

From a purely ethical standpoint I totally agree with you here.

The difference for me, however, is that you know what you are getting with an SX Jazz. An SX Jazz could probably pass for a Fender Jazz in a blindfold test. The SX Jazz is very similar to a Fender Jazz in terms of layout, fit and finish. Plus, Kurt at Rondo is a known entity; I've seen those photos of his chickens!

The Chinese Rickenbacker copies are not made especially closely to RIC specs. I've never seen one that is spot on, and most totally miss the mark. A lot of them come with that fattened up psuedo Toaster pickup in the neck, a weird single coil with chunky poles in the bridge, and a Les Paul wiring scheme. The bridges are designed so that the saddles sit where the mute compartment sits on a real Rick bridge. The bridge pickups are often too close to the bridge, as though the first copyist took measurements from a Hondo II copy from the '70s (which had the same issue). The fretboards are almost never lacquered and almost always too dark to pass for the real thing. The overall outline and appearance of these copies is close enough, but there are a number of reasons why they will never sound like real Rickenbackers.

And, to caveat, this isn't because I'm a Rick fanboy. You might think that an unlacquered neck is a better option, or that the bridge on the Chinese copies is superior to the real thing. However these are areas where the Chinese Rick copies differ from the real design more than an SX will differ from a Fender.

By applying a bit of intelligence the Chinese copyists could produce a much closer copy, tonally as well as visually. There is no secret ingredient to the Rick tone. However there is no motivation for the Chinese builders to build a closer copy, much as there is no motivation for the manufacturer of a fake Rolex to get the sweep of the second hand right. It has to look the part, from five feet away. That is it! You might receive a DHGate bass with pickups fitted that only really sense the A and D strings. 48 mm outer pole spacing sitting under 18 mm spaced strings, for example. Will the Chinese builders work tirelessly to put it right for you? Will they revise their design so that nobody else has this issue?

The Chinese builders, especially those who let you choose the colour or the TRC text under the guise of 'custom shop' building, are apparently weasels sometimes. They will lure you in by building you your dream Les Paul in your dream shade of green, with your surname on the headstock and your choice of wood for the fretboard, and all for $400. Reality hits when you might have ask for "Bound 'n' Blocked" on the TRC of your Rickenbacker copy, and it will come back with "Rickenbacker, Made in the USA" on there. Or they might get the colour wrong, or decide you really only wanted a 21 fret neck, or give you a 24 fret neck and install the bridge in the wrong place relative to the scale length. All the while they will be polite to you. The people I've heard from who have had the best results from these builders have been the guys who have had to hold their hand the entire way through the process, and send multiple photos and diagrams for everything. They've also had the courage to ask the builder to scrap half-built instruments with routes in the wrong places.

It isn't just musical instruments, or musicians, falling victim in all of this:

Fake paperwork, poor parts challenge China's aerospace boom

"Chinese suppliers to U.S. flight control systems maker Moog sold it poorly made parts, faked paperwork and outsourced work to a factory not approved by the company, according to an internal report by U.S. aviation regulators (...) 273 affected parts were installed in an unspecified number of Boeing 777 wing spoilers."

Forget flying, I'm walking there next time.

Still, last night I gigged my Chinese-built Fender Coronado II reissue bass. It is a solidly built bass with double body binding, F-hole binding, block inlays and other detailed fixtures and fittings. Fender wouldn't put their name to junk, and there is no reason why Chinese builders can't build a proper instrument if required. It is simply that there is a chasm between licenced or ghost-built instruments and knock-offs. The quality of the former is usually higher than that of the latter. All the knock-off builders really want is your $400.

As for those avoiding propping up the Chinese economy at all, I hope you never look under the hood on your computer. Those chips were all built somewhere, and I wager it wasn't Kalamazoo.
 
Gotta 1982 USA G&L 2000 Frettless. It was the brainchild from Leo Fender and George Fullerton. The original Fender guys. And while it looks similar in body shape to a Fender P bass, had a lot of modern changes including special neck and frettboard construction design, better PUPS, better electronics, and new designed locking bridge. And would play rings around a P bass. Still have that baby today, and she is a much better player than a P Bass

It was never a copy of a Fender P bass.
View attachment 2982529
I haven;t tried their import tribute versions, but I'm sure they maintain quality control. As G&L is still a very reputable company even though Leo has now passed.
Nice bass, they're awesome. Yeah the LB100 was their copy, so to speak. Many believe that body shape alone represents copy... Personally, I never saw a reason to care!

Love the G&L!
 
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Good points... but you may have missed my earlier statement, that copy and counterfeit are simply not the same... and to me, the scenario you're describing is copy/ and or accident. That's just a far cry from intentional, which is why it's the separation line for civil vs. legal, and misdemeanor vs. felony.

No doubt that you're correct on that front.

For any of you that have followed any of my other posts, you'd already know that I'm very strict about fact vs opinion. I love and want both, I respect both, and I follow both, but, I never confuse or mix the two... which is rare on the internet, TB included.

I love to hear everyone's experience and perspective, even when it differs with mine, but when they disguise it as fact, I move on immediately. You're not doing that, we're just talking about two very different things.

I reiterate that I can only speak from a law enforcement perspective, meaning, I don't state anything as fact unless I could prove it in a courtroom. To me, if you put a Gucci label on something and then try to sell it as a Gucci product, for a Gucci price, I don't see how that could ever be ethical, and certainly by law, it's not. This is a fact.

In your scenario, Gucci has let patent run out, or failed to adequetly patent their design, so another manufacturer could make a similar design legally, and that would cause many to question their ethics... but they'd have no leg to stand on.

All I can say is that if I bring a counterfeiter into a courtroom, and I have six cases of Fender neck plates as evidence: When I subpoena Fender and they testify that they didn't make the neck plates, the case will be closed. Now on the other hand, If I bring ESP to court and say that they counterfeited the Stratocaster, but the headstock says ESP... I just wasted the tax payers time and money, because in a battle of opinions, I'll lose against ESP's attorneys.

Sounds like you work in the legal end of manufacturing, and I work for the law enforcement side of govt! For me, it's all about educating consumers. I saw this thread getting of topic several days ago, and I merely wanted to point out that copies and counterfeits were not the same. Thanks for your perspective!

I did miss earlier posts.

Counterfeiting is definitely a step down ethically, no doubt about it. Copying can be an IP infringement, though, but it's dependent on what protections were sought, and IP laws.

Back in the 1850s the USA was notorious for copying, including printing books wholesale, in the 1950s Japan had a poor reputation, in the 80s, Korea. But Back To The Future is a pop culture reference to how things change, and I would expect that to change in those places that people complain about now within a decade or two. That would be a positive outcome, and hopefully one that still supports innovation.