chords

[Binnie]

just found these by accident -

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but judging by comments on earlier posts its not worth learning them off by heart from a table, i need to understand why those notes go together to make that particular chord?

 

[Jake of Bass]

Again, forget about scale tones for a minute. You would write those intervals when that's the correct way of representing the distance between a given set of notes.

Here's an example: imagine you have an F#7b5 chord, but it's voiced F# C A# E. C-A# is an augmented 6th interval. There are no augmented scale degrees in that chord, but there is an augmented interval in that voicing. That's the correct way of writing it, and you wouldn't write the A# as Bb if you were on the ball.

As for augmented 3rds, you hear them all the time in 7#9 chords. C E G Bb D#--the interval Bb-D# is an augmented 3rd. (It has to be written D# if it's truly a #9, though I sometimes wonder if it isn't better thought of as a b10... especially since the note can so easily go to a b9....).

I admit augmented 7ths would be harder to find, but I can't say it would never be done.

I understand now. I was coming from the intervals in relation to the root as opposed to their relationship with each other within a chord. Altered chords sometimes do my head in...

 

[Jake of Bass]

just found these by accident -

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but judging by comments on earlier posts its not worth learning them off by heart from a table, i need to understand why those notes go together to make that particular chord?

Pretty much. It's the relationship from the root that makes a chord what it is (relationship meaning the intervals).

So your standard major triad is root, major third, perfect fifth.

Minor triad is root, minor third, perfect fifth.

Dominant 7 is root, major third, perfect fifth, minor (or dominant) seventh.

Basically, each chord gives you the formula for the notes it contains. So if we look at E7#9 (commonly known among guitarists as the "Hendrix Chord" - one that he made his signature) we have:

The root, E
Then the major third (G#)
Then the perfect fifth (B)
Then the dominant seventh (D)
and finally the sharp ninth, which is technically F##

So the chord is: E G# B D F##

The reason for this is the natural ninth from E is F#, so we sharpen the F# (ie. we give it another sharp). Enharmonically the same as G, in chord theory it isn't, because G would be considered the minor third, for the same reason as the F# major scale has an E# instead of F natural (F# G# A# B C# D# E#), to keep it to the proper scale degree. This is where it can get confusing.

I think I got all that right...

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I understand where you're coming from, as far as language is concerned because I had it with the augmented thing a couple posts back, but how it was explained to me does make sense.

Thats the most important thing that it makes sense to you and you can apply it accordingly. You can refine you knowledge as you go.

 

[Binnie]

so basically when you get a note either F## or Fbb its enharmonically the same as the next whole note

so Cbb would be played as (B) and C## would be (D)?

 

[Jake of Bass]

Kinda. It is enharmonically the same as a whole tone from the natural. A whole note is a semibreve, which in 4/4 time is the value of four beats.

I'm not sure you'd ever see a Cbb, which is enharmonically the same as Bb/A# as with the circle of fifths determining key you're much more likely to be using either one of the latter (ie. Bb/A# - but I could be wrong and I'd like to see what in context you'd use a Cbb).

The C## is correct, it is enharmonically the same as D natural.

 

[Binnie]

it was just an example to see if i was understanding it properly

 

[Jake of Bass]

No worries. It's important to reinforce correctedness in any form of learning

 

[Binnie]

Ok i think i just hit a brick wall again.

I was just messing playing around with E D G A

So the only only major scales they would go into are C and G ? But you would then reject the C major because there is no (C) therefore no root note?


the only minor scales would be D A and E

-----------------------------------------------

So next your would put them in order of the scale?

G major would be G A D E -- I II X XI

D Minor D E G A ---- I II IV V

A Minor A D E G ----- I IV X VII

E minor E G D A ------ I III IV VII

----------------------------------------------------
I II X XI
(R) 2 5 6

I II IV V
(R) 2 4 5

I IV X VII
(R) 4 5 7

I III IV VII
(R) 3 4 7


or is this completely wrong and im just getting lost?

 

[mambo4]

Binnie,
First kudos for keeping up with the questions. I take it you can't find a teacher nearby? It might save you a lot of typing

I'm guessing you are asking "what chord and/or scale is implied by EDAG"?

Major scales the notes go into: C, G, F, Eb
Minor: A,E,D,C

G major would be G A D E -- I II X XI

This kind of analysis looks confusing to me. Usually, roman numerals mean entire chords, not scale degrees or chord tones. Capital roman numerals imply Major chords, lower case numerals imply minor. You never really see "X" or "XI" since VII is the highest chord you'll get to. If it's chord tones you are discussing, we generally write R, 3, 5 (& 7, 9, 11, 13, if needed) going up in thirds.

Also, D and E are the V and ii of G major, not X and XI. Nothing goes above VII, when roman numerals are used...

Because the sequence EDAG is not a nice, neat stack of thirds, the harmony it implies is a little vague, and will be determined largely by the context in which is is played.

My first impulse would be to ask "where are the thirds?" In this case it's only E-G that is a third. these are the first 2 tones in an E minor chord, so the chord implied could be Emin, with some alterations, namely R, b3, 4, b7. So i'd call it an Emin7 with a sus4 thrown in. Are these notes being played simultaneously, or are you riffing through them melodically? If the latter, realize that not all notes played necessarily must fit into a chord. They could be passing tones.

some of your analysis seems incorrect to me, I'd write:
G major would be G A D E -- R, 2(9), 5, 6
D Minor D E G A ---- R, 2(9), 4, 5
A Minor A D E G ----- R, 4, 5, 7
E minor E G D A ------ R, b3, 7, 4

I write 2(9) because the 2 and the 9 are the same note, but depending on context they are considered either one. I'd wait till your understanding of simple triads (R 3 5) is good before exploring that, however.

Ultimately, EDAG can be interpreted in a variety of ways, its real function can only be determined by context. It depends on which notes are being emphasized (if melody) and which chords surround it in the song (if harmony)

 

[Jake of Bass]

I can see where you're coming from but I think you're beginning to confuse yourself.



Go back and try to build your triad and work from there first, without taking scale into account. A triad is a root, third and fifth. A major triad uses a major third and a minor triad uses a minor third. Easy huh?


First, work out your intervals first before trying to build chords.


We have a major 2nd/9th from D-E

The only interval of a 3rd we can get is from E-G, a minor third.

We can get 4ths/11ths from E-A, A-D and D-G.

We can get a 5th from A-E, D-A and G-D, but no 3rd.

We can get a 6th/13th from G-E.

We can get dominant 7ths from E-D and A-G



Since we can't actually build a triad using root, third and fifth, we're going to attempt at some variations.



I've got a guitar here and I'm playing the chords we can make from these intervals.


E-G-D-A - I-III-VII-XI - Em7 add11 (no 5th)

A-E-G-D - I-V-VII-XI - A7 add11 (no 3rd)

D-A-E-G - I-V-VII-IX - D9 (no 3rd)

G-D-A-E - I-V-IX-XIII - G add9 add13 (no 3rd)


This is about the best you're going to get them, and some sound quite nice, however a third usually sounds better in these contexts (much easier to play if I had a keyboard!!) The last chord is probably the most obscure as it misses both a third or a raised fourth (suspended fourth - sus4). You'd use this in an equally obscure context, for whatever reason you need to ommit a third or fourth from a chord - that would be a composition thing and noone can truly tell you it's 'wrong', if it is your intent to make it sound that way.


This is all mere speculation for it is doing it backwards - you would normally have the music and then build chords to harmonise with the existing chords/melody which you are using, rather than choosing random notes and building chords from that. Or you may have a triad that you begin with and add/take notes as you please till you achieve a desired sound. Or if you were working this out from a set piece of music you would determine the appropriate chord in accordance with what is happening in that music piece by establishing perhaps the tonal centre first.


That's an attempt at an answer anyway.

 

[Jake of Bass]

And yeah, like mambo4 is saying, the premise of most chords is to construct them using thirds.

 

[Binnie]

Im looking into teachers, but i haven't been sucessful yet( in theory i would like one that plays only bass, but the chances are that i will have to settle for one that also plays guitar and/or more musical instruments).

I have started to understand the basic concept of the chords being a traid, but i was trying to find more information on why it is those three notes, I know it comes down to the Whole TST TTTS, but i was just wondering why it follows this Particular pattern , what is the actual reason behind it.(i hope you understand what i mean). Yet i havent actually been able to.

or is this looking too far into what i need to be looking at?

 

[Jake of Bass]

YES! The why of it all is very important.

We build chords using intervals of thirds. Why? Because, in a nutshell, these intervals create harmony together that is pleasing to the ear (I'm sure there is a much better explanation that someone can give you than that). With a series of three or more intervals played simultaneously (ie. a chord) all being either to close together or too far apart loses it's harmonic integrity.


If you look at a major triad, we have root, major third and fifth.

The interval between root to major third is, of course, a major third (2 tones).
The interval from major third to fifth is a minor third (1&1/2 tones).

Conversely, the intervals of a minor triad is as follows:

Root to minor third - minor third (1&1/2 tones)
Minor third to fifth - major third (2 tones)

If we look at a C7 chord, we have:

C E G Bb - which is maj3/min3/min3

C9 - C E G Bb D - maj3/min3/min3/maj3

There's a way for remembering chord intervals my grade 12 teacher showed us, it makes it all a lot easier to understand whilst still seeing it all as stacked thirds. He had a diagram of a house, but essentially think of a major triad as being 4-3. From root to maj3 we have 4 chromatic notes, 4 frets or 4 semitones (all the same thing) to the next interval, then 3 semitones to the next.

Minor triad is 3-4, for the same reason.

With this in mind it's easy to remember the stack of thirds for chords - you just remember the numbers and think of 4 being a major third, 3 being a minor third. It changes a bit when you get to chords like C6 because then it is 4-3-2 (root, maj3, 5th, 6th - stacked intervals from root are: maj3/min3/maj2)




It's generally considered to be best learning theory on a keyboard, as the notes are in linear order and the difference between natural notes and enharmonic notes is very easy (white keys and black keys respectively). Building intervals is easy, and you can see the direct relationship between each note, whereas on bass/guitar the notes 'overlap' as you change strings. But it shouldn't matter who's teaching the theory provided they can show you what you need to know. A good bass teacher will show you all this stuff and how to apply it to your bass. And never consider someone who plays other instruments as well as bass as "settling" for them - they most likely can offer you additional ideas gained from their skills and experience.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Hi Binnie, thats a good point that you need to find a teacher, get his point of view on the subject and relate all you find out and learn through him so you have a single train of thought, then try and expand that train of thought for yourself. No offence to anyone else that has worked hard with you on this as all their input is relevent, but you want a "theory buddy" for a while and since jake of bass has done most of the leg work, ask him if there is a way to work with him and him only for a while. Sorry to put it on you jake but it kind of makes sense at this point. If not come back to me and i'll see if i can help you.

If you think all the scales and modes are confusing look at it from the point of view that if you look at the white notes on a piano only;
an Aeolian scale is all the white notes.A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A
a Locrian scale is all the white notes.. B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B
an Ionian scale is all the white notes.. C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
a Dorian is all the white notes............D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D
a Phrygian is all the white notes.........E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E
a Lydian scale is all the white notes....F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F
a Mixolydian scle is all the white notes.G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G

Once you understand that the scales were developed in this way you can now see that they make sense not only as you read them left to right but also up and down. eg: if you take the root from each individual scale you end up with an Aeolian scale If you take the 2nd note of each individual scale you get a Locrian scale and so on. Treat this like solving a puzzle the apply it to you bass and see what happens. Have fun.

 

[Binnie]

OK so going clockwise on the circle of 5th's following majors is the 5th note on the previous Major scale, the further you go round the number of sharps increase by one from C having 0 sharps to Db having 7? and anti clockwise is flats C having none to B having 7..

So in theory the smothest way of chord prgressions would be to play the chord progression directly next to it

C ->
C ->

F -> C
F -> Bb

and so on?

 

[mambo4]

You kind of got the idea.

Note: Db does not have any #'s in the key signature; no flat keys have sharps in the sig. C# would, and would be enharmonic. However, Db , with 5 flats , is arguably easier to read and thus would show up more often...

Yes, chords moving around the circle of fifths is a pretty dependable way to get a pleasing sequence of chords. To stay in the same key, however, you'll need to alter the chords between major, minor, and diminished flavors as you cycle.

for example, if you harmonize the C major scale in triads, you get:
C maj, D min, E min, F maj, G maj, A min, B dim.
(in roman numerals I, ii,iii,IV,V,vi,vii dim.)
played in that order it sounds less compelling than going around the circle of fifths:
F maj , B dim, E min, A min, D min, G maj, C maj.
(roman numerals IV, vii, iii, vi, ii, V, I)

in fact, if you cycle through the last 4 chords (I,vi, ii, V) you will probably recognize it as one of the most common chord progressions in western music.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

OK so going clockwise on the circle of 5th's following majors is the 5th note on the previous Major scale, the further you go round the number of sharps increase by one from C having 0 sharps to Db having 7? and anti clockwise is flats C having none to B having 7..

So in theory the smothest way of chord prgressions would be to play the chord progression directly next to it

C ->
C ->

F -> C
F -> Bb

and so on?

Hmmm...... well yes and no because there are many other factors involved and the first one is what are the others around you playing. You now get in to the theory of arrangement and that is a skill in itself.
I like that you found the cycle of 5ths and understand that it orders sharps and flats in to there keys as you progress. That order of sharps and flats is the way they must be written in notation and no other.

So i want to nudge you along this road if i may. So now you have all these major keys have you found the other keys that share these sharps and flats, in other words their relative minor key? I'll give you the formula. Each major scale has a relative minor three semi-tones below its root, Aminor is relative to Cmajor as they have no sharps or flats. get the picture.

Try and find the others play, interact with them together and seperately and see what you find, some of the most popular melodies of the past 50 years i'm willing to bet.

 

[Jake of Bass]

I've mentioned relative minor quite a few times in this thread in the hopes that it might spark something, but perhaps being obvious about it was the only way.


Ok, time for some key signature theory.


Introduction
We use key signatures to indicate which major key centre (this is including it's diatonic modes, but we'll get to tonal centres and implied harmony another time) we're deriving our notes from. Rather than write a sharp next to every single F note in an entire song or passage of music in the key of G major, we simply write an F# at the start of the section or song and before the time signature (and usually at the start of each line of notation) to indicate our tonality is G major, or a diatonic relative (ie. a mode such as E Aeolian [minor], which is also known as the relative minor to G Ionian [major]). This then allows both composer and anyone else who reads the music to "think" in G major, automatically sharpening every F note in any octave as they read it. Even if you're not reading the notes, the key signature play a vital role in reading a chord progression, as you can determine the overall implied harmony and not just focus on the chords themselves.

Note that this all goes beyond just reading music on a musical staff (although I will refer to it now and then) and right into understanding what any given key is doing.



For the benefits of this post and keeping things as simple as possible, we will be using only major keys.




Determining Key Signatures
Circle of Fifths from natural (C major) gives you all you keys with sharps in them
Cycle of Fourths from natural (again, C major) gives you all your keys with flats in them.

Note: I've seen it referred to as the Cycle of Fifths and the Circle of Fourths, or both Circle of Fifths and Circle of Fourths, or Cycle of Fifths and Cycle of Fourths. This is all largely irrelavent as the terminology used decribes the exact same thing. In this case I'll apply both terms.



Circle of Fifths
The Circle of Fifths, to put simply, is a sequence of major keys, ascending in intervals of fifths.
Every time we change key, we add a new sharp.

The order of keys for the circle of fifths is:

C G D A E B F#


Remember of course that C contains only natural notes, so there are no sharps.


The next key in the sequence is of course G major.

So, starting from C, fifth up we have G. That has one sharp, F#.
Then, up a fifth from G we go to D. That has two sharps, F# and C#.
Then up a fifth from D we arrive at A. This has three sharps, F#, C# and G#...


Can you see a pattern emerging here?


To check this, go from G major your intervals (TTS, TTTS)

You'll see your notes are: G A B C D E F#
D major: D E F# G A B C#
A major: A B C# D E F# G#


Each time we go to the next fifth, we add a sharp to the sequence. We build up the sharps in order. An an easy way to figure out which sharp to add to the sequence is simply by going a semitone from the new root note of the next key in the Circle of Fifths.

So in the case of G, a semitone below is F#
Then D major you add C# to the F#
Then for A you add G# to this sequence (F#, C#, G#)
Then E you have F#, C#, G# and D#...

...until we get seven sharps. But, as previously stated by mambo4, as C# is enharmonically the same as Db, and Db has less flats than C# has sharps, we use Db instead much more often than not, as it easier to read five sharps instead of seven sharps.

Another way we can remember this (perhaps easier for some) is to simply think that we sharpen the dominant seventh of the scale relative to the root. So in the case of G major, F would be the seventh, so we sharpen it to make it a major seventh. D major you add the sharpened C, which is dominant seventh, to create a major seventh.



Cycle of Fourths
The Cycle of Fourths is similar to the Circle of Fifths, but as the name implies we ascend using intervals of fourths.
As we go up a fourth from C, the next key has an extra flat.


We have an order of keys for the cycle of fourths:

C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb


Again, C major is an all natural key. So no flats used.


The next is of course F major. Using again (TTS, TTTS) we have:

F major: F G A Bb C D E
Bb major: Bb C D Eb F G A
Eb major: Eb F G Ab Bb C D


The same rule of going to the next key and adding a flat to the previous sequence applies.

From C major we have all natural notes, then up a fourth to F major, where we have one flat, and a fourth up is Bb with two flats, etc...


An easy way to work out the next flat to add, simply take a fourth from the root.


F major has Bb (an interval of a fourth from the root being F)
A fourth from the next key (Bb) is Eb, so the order is: Bb, Eb
A fourth from Eb is Ab, so the order is: Bb, Eb, Ab

Again, you can see a pattern emerging here.


Using both circle and cycle (or both circles, or both cycles - depends on what you call them, but despite the labelling the idea remains the same) gives you all 12 keys. Note that F# major is enharmonically the same as Gb major. F# major has six sharps whilst Gb major has six flats... so you could use either one really.


Determining Keys From the Key Signature
So... now we can figure out the key signature of any given key, what's next?

Well, you can now read a key signature and determine the key quickly from there.

How do we do this? Well, I'm glad you asked...



Go back to the top and read how we arrived at determining the sharps for the keys of G, D and A. They have one, two and three sharps respectively.

If we see a key signature of one sharp, this will always mean G major. There is no other possible key that uses the same sequence of notes, other than the diatonic modes associated with G major (this includes it's relative minor, E minor).

If we see a key signature of two sharps it will always be D major, for the same reasons.

If we see a key signature of three sharps, it will always be A major.


Make sense? The same applies for the flats we use.



Keys With Sharpened Notes
My grade 12 teacher had a great way of teaching us how to remember the order, as all sharps and/or all flats in a key signature in any given piece of music must follow the same order.

Remember this little phrase:

Father Charlie Goes Down And Ends Battle

So if we see a key signature with three sharps, we count three words along:

Father Charlie Goes

So our three sharps in order are: F#, C# and G#. Going a semtione up from the final sharp gives us our key: A major.

Got that? Ok then...



Keys With Flattened Notes
The same goes for flats, only we read the phrase backwards:

Battle Ends And Down Goes Charlie's Father

So a key signature with three flats, using the same rules as before, is written in this order: Bb, Eb and Ab. To determine what key we're in, it will be the second last flat. So here the second last flat is Eb. So we're in the key of Eb.


Make sense?



Order of Sharps and Flats on the Staff or Stave
One last thing...

Remember the phrase for sharps?

Father Charlie Goes Down And Ends Battle


The order for writing sharps is the same as the phrase, and the order for writing flats is the same as the phrase reversed.


Meaning you ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS write a key signature, up to seven sharps, in this order:

F# C# G# D# A# E# B#


And same for flats, in reverse phrase order:

Battle Ends And Down Goes Charlie's Father

Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb Fb


So for writing the key signature for E major, we would write on the staff: F#, C#, G#, D#
Writing the key of Eb we would write: Bb Eb Ab





That's at least a week's worth of classroom theory right there...

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Great work Jake looks good to me, you go straight to the top of my christmas card list LOL
Binnie spend some time to find examples of all this in songs and you'll hear a whole new point of understanding. I'll give you a couple for free.. intro to White Wedding, Billy Idol, Bminor Triad. Intro and main verses of Walking on the moon, the Police, lower part an a major tetrachord.
The idea is that you learn to recognise all you have learned in music, with your ears, relate those sounds and songs with the intervals so when you here them you have an instant picture of how they are construted, how you can apply and importantly intract with them. Keep up the hard work Binnie and you will indeed have a good new year.