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chords
- Thread starter Binnie
- Start date
In our standard 12 tone tempered system, as exemplified by a piano, yes. Technically, a Gb is not quite the same as an F#, and some instruments can make that distinction, but for most practical purposes, yes--same note written two different ways.
About the bolded text: You do that sometimes but far from always. On piano, I always play all notes in the same octave. That might be because I suck at piano, but this way of playing it sounds good too. The D don't clash with the C unless you play it in a low octave.
Speaking about sus chords, I find this progression very "smooth":
I, IVsus2, Vsus4, I
e.g.:
C E G (C)
F G C (Fsus2)
G C D (Gsus4)
C E G (C)
In this progression you find that C and G are present in each chord. That's why it sounds so smooth. As a general "rule" you can say sus2 usually fits well on the IV chord, and the sus4 on the V.
7sus4 and 9sus4 chords are also nice to know about. However in these, the "4" number is often left out for some reason.
C7sus - C F G Bb
C9sus - C F G Bb D
The reason the 4 is left out is that sus2 is never used in dominant chords as the 2 would be the same as the 9. A C7sus2 chord would actually be written as C9(no3).
Also if you see a chord like Csus, you can be pretty sure that they mean a Csus4. If no number is written out after "sus", it is assumed that they mean a sus4.
Another thing with sus2 and sus4 - a sus2 is only an inversion of a sus4 chord, just with another note in as the lowest one, thereby changing the character of the chord.
Csus4 = C F G
Fsus2 = Csus4/F = F G C
By the way, I think there starts to be enough info for you here to keep you busy for years. Because the next thing you need to do is to learn this so you know it without having to think about it. However, that's not yet very hard. What will keep you busy for years after this is to learn to recognize all these chord types BY EAR, and learn how they all interact. The ultimate challenge is also to be able to use them fluently in own compositions.
The best way to learn to recognize the chords by ear is to play them. Play lots of music where the different chord types are used, and you will start recognizing small patterns here and there. After a while you should be able to transcribe at least simple songs without having to use an instrument. But look at that as a distant goal, don't get frustrated if it takes a few years...
I've been transcribing songs for 13 years now approximately and I still have a lot to learn... I bet there's enough to learn to keep you occupied for a lifetime if not more.
Yes indeed. There was already an F# as the 5th of the B major chord, so to make it an augmented chord, the 5th has to be raised a half-step to Fx. (The double-sharp symbol is not actually an x, though it looks sort of like one. But "x" is the easiest way of writing it on a forum like this, just as "b" is for a flat.)
I'm seeing it from a guitar perspective (one ocatve lower than middle C - sure you know already
) hence why putting the sus2 in the upper octave. Works better both harmonically (not nearly as 'muddy') and physically. Having said that, theory is always easier when attributing it to the keyboard.What will keep you busy for years after this is to learn to recognize all these chord types BY EAR, and learn how they all interact. The ultimate challenge is also to be able to use them fluently in own compositions.
The best way to learn to recognize the chords by ear is to play them. Play lots of music where the different chord types are used, and you will start recognizing small patterns here and there. After a while you should be able to transcribe at least simple songs without having to use an instrument. But look at that as a distant goal, don't get frustrated if it takes a few years...
this was the part i was not looking forward too, picking up bass from a simple song is bad enough for me
You're doing fine, in fact better than fine, you're going great guns.
What you need to do is to begin translating all this to your instrument. A very good way to see it done in fine form is to check out Havic5's youtube vid on diatonic chord progressions, as this relates very closely to what's been discussed here, but using a simple II V I progression, which is a very common turnaround in jazz.
What you need to do is to begin translating all this to your instrument. A very good way to see it done in fine form is to check out Havic5's youtube vid on diatonic chord progressions, as this relates very closely to what's been discussed here, but using a simple II V I progression, which is a very common turnaround in jazz.
The stuff in that lesson might not be ideal for a beginner, but the idea of chord "mapping" is still a good one for general knowledge, if you can understand what I mean by it.
I agree with you there, though with Binnie having gone this far into chord theory quite successfully I feel it would be a good vid to check out how they fit together diatonically, rather than just seeing it all on paper.
this was the part i was not looking forward too, picking up bass from a simple song is bad enough for me
+1. If you Binnie have managed to learn all the stuff shown to you in this thread in two/three days, that's nothing but excellent learning.
another question.
the starting note on a chord can be changed as this reflects what key it is?
So A major Could start on the C# or the E?
-----------------------------------
started looking at triads from a lesson
Major triad = Root + Major Third + Perfect Fifth
Minor triad = Root + Minor Third + Perfect Fifth
Diminished triad = Root + Minor Third + Diminished Fifth
Augmented triad = Root + Major Third + Augmented Fifth
now, what I did to help me learn how to identify triads of a chord just by looking at them is what my theory teacher advised me.
This may seem stupid, too repetitive, and annoying, but it sure worked for me.
Memorize the 12 MAJOR triads for each accepted key.
They are as follows:
A C# E --->A major
Bb D F
B D# F# --> B major
C E G --> C major
C# E# G#
D F# A --> D major
Eb G Bb
E G# B --> E major
F A C --> F Major.
F# A# C#
G B D ---> G major
G# B# D#
how do you play a B# is c is directly the next note from B
Helpful people make the learning easier.
the starting note on a chord can be changed as this reflects what key it is?
So A major Could start on the C# or the E?
-----------------------------------
started looking at triads from a lesson
Major triad = Root + Major Third + Perfect Fifth
Minor triad = Root + Minor Third + Perfect Fifth
Diminished triad = Root + Minor Third + Diminished Fifth
Augmented triad = Root + Major Third + Augmented Fifth
now, what I did to help me learn how to identify triads of a chord just by looking at them is what my theory teacher advised me.
This may seem stupid, too repetitive, and annoying, but it sure worked for me.
Memorize the 12 MAJOR triads for each accepted key.
They are as follows:
A C# E --->A major
Bb D F
B D# F# --> B major
C E G --> C major
C# E# G#
D F# A --> D major
Eb G Bb
E G# B --> E major
F A C --> F Major.
F# A# C#
G B D ---> G major
G# B# D#
how do you play a B# is c is directly the next note from B
+1. If you Binnie have managed to learn all the stuff shown to you in this thread in two/three days, that's nothing but excellent learning.
Helpful people make the learning easier
.
All chords can be voiced differently, i.e. you can move a notes up or down an octave as you like.
You can play an A major chord like:
A C# E (first inversion)
C# E A (second inversion)
E A C# (third inversion)
However, the lowest note in the chord (usually played on the bass) should still be an A. If you don't want the bass to play an A, but e.g. the C# instead, you'd write out that as a slash chord: A/C#.
The bass note don't have to be a chord note though. Look at this small chord progression:
| A | A/G | D/F# | E7 | A...
There the second chord is not diatonic with the rest of the progression, but sounds quite nice anyway. It's because it's essentially the same notes as an A7 chord, which naturally would be followed by a D, as it is here. Dominant chords are often resolved a quarter upwards.
You could make this progression diatonic as well by replacing the A/G with an E/G#. That sounds less "dramatic". In books you often see A/G# written out but I think that chord clashes too much.
Often, by playing with slash chords you find that lots of those can be written out as other chords. For example:
A/F# = F#m7
Am/F# = F#m7b5 (half-diminished also written as F#Ø)
Am/F = Fmaj7
A/B = B11
To put these in a context, you could have these progressions:
| Em | F#m7b5 | B7 | Em |
| E | F#m7 | B11 | E |
| Am | Am/G | Am/F# | Fmaj7 |
In the last line I chose not to write out F#m7b5 because seems clearer in this case to write Am/F#.
Now I have to rush but there's a bit more for you to check out.
You can play an A major chord like:
A C# E (first inversion)
C# E A (second inversion)
E A C# (third inversion)
However, the lowest note in the chord (usually played on the bass) should still be an A. If you don't want the bass to play an A, but e.g. the C# instead, you'd write out that as a slash chord: A/C#.
The bass note don't have to be a chord note though. Look at this small chord progression:
| A | A/G | D/F# | E7 | A...
There the second chord is not diatonic with the rest of the progression, but sounds quite nice anyway. It's because it's essentially the same notes as an A7 chord, which naturally would be followed by a D, as it is here. Dominant chords are often resolved a quarter upwards.
You could make this progression diatonic as well by replacing the A/G with an E/G#. That sounds less "dramatic". In books you often see A/G# written out but I think that chord clashes too much.
Often, by playing with slash chords you find that lots of those can be written out as other chords. For example:
A/F# = F#m7
Am/F# = F#m7b5 (half-diminished also written as F#Ø)
Am/F = Fmaj7
A/B = B11
To put these in a context, you could have these progressions:
| Em | F#m7b5 | B7 | Em |
| E | F#m7 | B11 | E |
| Am | Am/G | Am/F# | Fmaj7 |
In the last line I chose not to write out F#m7b5 because seems clearer in this case to write Am/F#.
Now I have to rush but there's a bit more for you to check out.
Great work i hope you now start to see the connection which is its the intervals that define the chord from its root at this stage in your learning. On a standard four string bass we tune E- A-D-G giving us equal intervals between the strings. If you learn the intervals and the shape of pattern they form on the neck you will see how the intervals work. The shapes are the same, only changing when open strings are used, and even then the shapes used there will be consistant. So one you have learned the shape for a Major scale/chord it will retain that shape for all major scales and chords. This will apply to most of what you learn. Once you learn the intervals and the shape you can move it with ease anywhere on the fretboard.
A quick tip, I learn all music music this way as a rule of thumb because that's how i earn my living. If i am sent a CD from say... America of an artist who is hiring me, i will learn the shapes and intervals, the notes are there as a matter course because this is how i learn. When i comes to the rehearsals with the artist, which we do not always get, and he wants to change key, all i have to do is apply the same shape and interval in the new key. there is no need for me to think of what the notes are, the intervals will take care of that.
So have a look at all the information, look at the intervals, in fact you have learnt five shapes or set of intervals. In reality you have learnt sixty chords, including any open string variations.
A quick tip, I learn all music music this way as a rule of thumb because that's how i earn my living. If i am sent a CD from say... America of an artist who is hiring me, i will learn the shapes and intervals, the notes are there as a matter course because this is how i learn. When i comes to the rehearsals with the artist, which we do not always get, and he wants to change key, all i have to do is apply the same shape and interval in the new key. there is no need for me to think of what the notes are, the intervals will take care of that.
So have a look at all the information, look at the intervals, in fact you have learnt five shapes or set of intervals. In reality you have learnt sixty chords, including any open string variations.
Ok So now i have sat down and marked using (1,2,3,4) (fingers to be used) the shapes to the following. Which means now i can use this shape moving up and down the fret board to the different chord types. (im not 100% sure these are right, but i think they are?)
major:
D:1 3 4
A:1 2 4
E:2 4
minor:
1
1 34
1 34
major 7th:
1 3
3
4
diminished:
2
1 4
minor7th :
1
3
1 4
doninant 7th:
1 4
3
4
major:
D:1 3 4
A:1 2 4
E:2 4
minor:
1
1 34
1 34
major 7th:
1 3
3
4
diminished:
2
1 4
minor7th :
1
3
1 4
doninant 7th:
1 4
3
4
There is not enough information to comment on what you have done. What fingers do your no.s apply to and what fret and string are you basing the root? If you state the notes you will see at this point there are few options on fingering, so use what is easist and comfortable. Get into the habit of using music notation to learn theory as it flows easier and has more information than tab.
Music on a score is always flowing forward and moves up and down as it goes. As all shapes and paterns can be moved (transposed) you need only one of each scale or chord for the moment. C major is ideal as it is a perfect scale(it has no sharps or flats. Accidentals is the proper name that sharps and flats are part of.) and makes it easy to work out the order of sharps and flats from this scale, on which other scales are dependant later on.
Apply the major, minor, minor7,etc to the C only and you will see the pattern and read the notes.
This will become a matter of course over the years that you see the shape and hear the notes and know the interval.
Go now and open a door. What happened is you went and opened the door. You never worked out how fast to approach the door, how high to lift your hand, when to stop and let your hand go to the handle, how much you turn the handle, how much you pull the door, etc. etc. you just do it as a matter of course. Music will end up being as easy as opening a door if you undestand it and apply it properly.
That means starting at the beginning and working your way though the the natural order of learning theory. It sound like a tall order but it becomes easier the more you understand, you will not regret it.
Music on a score is always flowing forward and moves up and down as it goes. As all shapes and paterns can be moved (transposed) you need only one of each scale or chord for the moment. C major is ideal as it is a perfect scale(it has no sharps or flats. Accidentals is the proper name that sharps and flats are part of.) and makes it easy to work out the order of sharps and flats from this scale, on which other scales are dependant later on.
Apply the major, minor, minor7,etc to the C only and you will see the pattern and read the notes.
This will become a matter of course over the years that you see the shape and hear the notes and know the interval.
Go now and open a door. What happened is you went and opened the door. You never worked out how fast to approach the door, how high to lift your hand, when to stop and let your hand go to the handle, how much you turn the handle, how much you pull the door, etc. etc. you just do it as a matter of course. Music will end up being as easy as opening a door if you undestand it and apply it properly.
That means starting at the beginning and working your way though the the natural order of learning theory. It sound like a tall order but it becomes easier the more you understand, you will not regret it.
D:1 3 4
A:1 2 4
E:2 4
and ill just stick with C major for this.
to explain what i mean more clearly
finger 1 would cover the 7th fret (E A)
Finger 2 would be (root note (c) and F) 8th
Finger 3 would be (B) 9th
Finger Four would be 10th Fret (D G C)
Each pattern(the bassist chooses easiest for him/her) can be used for each chord up and down the bass right?
A:1 2 4
E:2 4
and ill just stick with C major for this.
to explain what i mean more clearly
finger 1 would cover the 7th fret (E A)
Finger 2 would be (root note (c) and F) 8th
Finger 3 would be (B) 9th
Finger Four would be 10th Fret (D G C)
Each pattern(the bassist chooses easiest for him/her) can be used for each chord up and down the bass right?
