Claims about Este Haim's live playing

[E2942]

I've had a fair bit of experience with others pretending like my real world experiences meant nothing, because they simply know better. It's beyond frustrating.

Esté has no reason to mime playing, she can actually play!

 

[Knavery]

I thought women in rock was commonplace. It would never cross my mind that the playing is fake because the musician is a woman. We have plenty of big, corporate male bands that do that already.

 

[40Hz]

We all do have our own experiences. I've never had a problem with people speaking their own truth. But when they try to override my truth? Big problem with that one.

Sadly it's done so often that people don't even realize they're doing it.

Kinda raises a question of what the truth actually is if it’s different for each person doesn’t it? Probably why I avoid using the word ‘truth’ as much as possible. It’s just too loaded a term these days.

I have very strong convictions based on a lot of thought and observation tempered by personal experience. But they’re lightly held convictions and subject to change based in new data. I see myself and my convictions as a work in progress.

 

[fdeck]

When I see a woman playing an instrument other than piano, flute, or violin, I think to myself, "One more woman who's broken out of the sexist pigeonhole men have been trying to shove them into for centuries - fantastic".

Not too long ago, the violin was utterly male dominated at the professional level. One thing that changed was that orchestras started having blind auditions in the 1980s. Classical music still hasn't reached parity on every instrument, but things are definitely changing.

I just got back from a week of playing in the woods with about 60 fiddlers and other assorted folk musicians. The gender balance was pretty even at all levels from beginner to pro.

On the other hand, jazz still remains male dominated, and is coincidentally, dying. I think especially younger players are discovering that a more co-ed atmosphere is more interesting and fun.

 

[atquinn]

Why bring race into it?

Cheap woke points, then proudly signing off with presumably your real name. Care to revise that 'idiot' remark?

I'm not sure why I would be an idiot for using my real name? Unlike many, I stand by what I say whether it be offline or online. And race was brought in because if you were in any minority group, such as, for example a black male (hello me) you would tend to be more sympathetic to other minority viewpoints (this is obviously not an incontrovertible rule). But the sort of thing I see happening in this thread is typical of what happens when supermajority members (the aforementioned white males, and sure go ahead and throw straight in there if you want ) are "confronted" with a minority sharing their lived experience. Instead of empathizing with the person sharing their crappy experience it's a whole bunch of "not all men" and bending over backwards to explain how maybe the crappy behavior was actually based in rationality and good motivations instead of prejudice.

Based on your "cheap woke points" phrase, I suppose you'll accuse me of trying to cancel someone next?

 

[selowitch]

I would have more respect for a band “playing badly”; everyone, probably even you, has had bad nights, but at least they get up there and do it, keeping it real, with the hope that the boat will right itself by the end of the evening. If I wanted “perfection”, I’d just stay home and listen to albums.

Absolutely we’ve had bad nights, although I hope it was only a bad song or two and not the entire night.

 

[GrooveDaddy]

It's just from stupid ******** who think they know something about playing bass -- nothing more, nothing less.

I saw Haim last year -- they were great, and yes, everything they were playing was live.

 

[DCGuy]

Someone’s calling everyone a liar? I haven’t seen that. While your lived experience is what it is and may be a good lens for you to see the world, it’s a big leap to say that it’s universally true.

 

[Lance Bunyon]

One of my best drummers was someone my old original Boston band nicknamed "Da Girl". Hard rock/metal drummer from Cape Ann MA.
She and I had history before the band. My mates asked me "what do you think of Da Girl?". I replied "Twas a failed romance id prefer to not be in a band with her...".
Went to the Philippines and surprise! When I returned, Da Girl was our new drummer. To make matters worse, I was recruited to drive her back to Cape Ann two or three nights a week (since I had a pad in Gloucester).
The guitarist took up with her and it all ended very badly. Singer and I were walking into the practice space and she was screaming "YOU ONLY ****** ME CAUSE I WAS THERE!".
Frontman looks at me and says "you wanna get a smoke?"

Thing is, that woman could play as hard and heavy as Carmine Apice!
I know the story has nothing to do with the thread. I'm almost an old man and I enjoy a good yarn from the past now and again. And now, a word from our sponsors...

 

[bobdabilder]

I appreciate your opinion. I do find it rooted in stereotypes. Some of the more racist comments I've heard about white males playing bass originated with minorities.

I'm not sure why I would be an idiot for using my real name? Unlike many, I stand by what I say whether it be offline on online. And race was brought in because if you were in any minority group, such as, for example a black male (hello me) you would tend to be more sympathetic to other minority viewpoints (this is obviously not an incontrovertible rule). But the sort of thing I see happening in this thread is typical of what happens when supermajority members (the aforementioned white males, and sure go ahead and throw straight in there if you want ) are "confronted" with a minority sharing their lived experience. Instead of empathizing with the person sharing their crappy experience it's a whole bunch of "not all men" and bending over backwards to explain how maybe the crappy behavior was actually based in rationality and good motivations instead of prejudice.

Based in your "cheap woke points" phrase, I suppose you'll accuse me of trying to cancel someone next?

 

[Michedelic]

One of my best drummers was someone my old original Boston band nicknamed "Da Girl". Hard rock/metal drummer from Cape Ann MA.
She and I had history before the band. My mates asked me "what do you think of Da Girl?". I replied "Twas a failed romance id prefer to not be in a band with her...".
Went to the Philippines and surprise! When I returned, Da Girl was our new drummer. To make matters worse, I was recruited to drive her back to Cape Ann two or three nights a week (since I had a pad in Gloucester).
The guitarist took up with her and it all ended very badly. Singer and I were walking into the practice space and she was screaming "YOU ONLY ****** ME CAUSE I WAS THERE!".
Frontman looks at me and says "you wanna get a smoke?"

Thing is, that woman could play as hard and heavy as Carmine Apice!
I know the story has nothing to do with the thread. I'm almost an old man and I enjoy a good yarn from the past now and again. And now, a word from our sponsors...

You should check out Yoyoka…


…and of course, Ellen…

 

[Kubicki Fan]

Don't blow this out of proportion. The internet culture empowered all kinds of idiots to spew, and their crap finds traction with their own kind. So, you hear a lot more of this but that doesn't mean that the half-wit's opinion is what counts. Garbage gets more exposure now. Welcome to free speech.

Milli Vanilli were puppets. Nobody dumps on the puppet masters. Both guys are, sadly, deceased before their time.

 

[Robot.G]

Well, perhaps someone on TB has some insight into this particular case, maybe via direct experience with the tour or the artists. While the article does spell it out it’s surely not the definitive account. I also don’t see the evidence that this criticism of the artist is rooted in sexism.

Seriously?

 

[Michedelic]

Yeeeah…this went well. But the most shocking takeaway for me….is how many had never heard of Haim. You don’t even need to know their music, but she’s been the Queen of Bassface for years.

 

[No Compute]

And race was brought in because if you were in any minority group, such as, for example a black male (hello me) you would tend to be more sympathetic to other minority viewpoints

But isn’t ‘minority’ a localized reality (and also a somewhat misleading label)? And at what layer do we stop dividing ourselves into a sub category?

For example, I am a white male of Irish descent (2nd generation on both sides of my family) born in New York. Was I a ‘minority’ in the US census? No. But was I a ‘minority’ in my home of many years (the Marcy Homes in Brooklyn)? Absolutely. Was I subjected to ‘supermajority’ sh$t talk? Absolutely. Was it the majority of my experiences? Definitely not. Was that ‘supermajority’ white males? Definitely not. And this trend has continued for years throughout many similar neighborhoods- but you know what? Pretty quickly you make new friends and everyone (except the outliers who are extremely hung up on silly things like ‘race’ [which wasn’t even acknowledged until the 1600s or so] and don’t have many other friends outside the Israelites on 42nd St) becomes happy neighbors with similar values. And life becomes more interesting.

Beyond that, according to a few research sites the US population of male vs. female actually skews (slightly, but still…) female. So what is this ‘minority’ that you speak of? Women vs. Men as a global population? Women vs. Men in the US population? Women in music vs. Men in Music? Women in music in the US (who are actually good at any instrument) vs. Men in the US (who are barely passable at any instrument)? Black males who dominate the bass vs. White guys who ‘couldn’t possibly keep up?’ See where all this is going?

IMO, all of this subdivision (call it what you will, but it is very pseudo-nationalist, and almost as scary), does nobody any good.

So let’s talk about bass players for their qualities of playing bass and leave it at that. Any additional layer-type judgment or qualification that someone puts on that makes them just as bad as those criticizing Este, no? The only difference is that their own lens hasn’t come into social scrutiny yet. But that day comes yet.

So go outside and meet people who aren’t just like you. Get to know them, get to trust them. And let your experiences combine to make a better future for this silly petty creature we call Human Beings

 

[majbass]

Why bring race into it?

Cheap woke points, then proudly signing off with presumably your real name. Care to revise that 'idiot' remark?

A racist remark that would be recognized if directed at any other race IMO

 

[80jazz]

Right. See my comments about Verdine White.

I saw him in concert last year and would find it odd if he faked his parts.

 

[majbass]

When you have a 1.4 million people following your band, someone is going to post a dumb opinion about anything. Does that mean it's something that "people think", or that just a couple of dumb people think? Are you helping things by punching down at some random account? I am not sure that you are.

But this has always kind of been part of their thing... "nobody believed in us, nobody respected us, everybody doubted us and told us to quit." They draw energy from it and that's fine, but they also point this stuff out and feed off it.

 

[SulzerType2]

I'm not sure why I would be an idiot for using my real name? Unlike many, I stand by what I say whether it be offline or online. And race was brought in because if you were in any minority group, such as, for example a black male (hello me) you would tend to be more sympathetic to other minority viewpoints (this is obviously not an incontrovertible rule). But the sort of thing I see happening in this thread is typical of what happens when supermajority members (the aforementioned white males, and sure go ahead and throw straight in there if you want ) are "confronted" with a minority sharing their lived experience. Instead of empathizing with the person sharing their crappy experience it's a whole bunch of "not all men" and bending over backwards to explain how maybe the crappy behavior was actually based in rationality and good motivations instead of prejudice.

Based on your "cheap woke points" phrase, I suppose you'll accuse me of trying to cancel someone next?

Stunning and brave. Quite a lot of mental gymnastics to justify a pointlessly race-baiting and intellectually lightweight post.

Black males being tragically underrepresented and voiceless in the bass playing community, right enough. Check your privilege.

Speaking of cancelling, you're going straight to my ignore list so I never knowingly have to witness you trying to think again.


As for Haim, go check out their father Moti Haim. That band are the definition of nepo-babies. The fact that they sound like Fleetwood Mac in the studio and a 2nd rate cover band live says a lot about their collective position of privilege; there is less of that coveted intersectionality going on here than you might initially think.

 

[40Hz]

This is starting to sound more and more like Facebook or Twitter. Someone posts something. And very shortly afterwards the competition starts to show who’s been more abused and injured, who’s more virtuous, who’s more enlightened, who can be more righteously indignant. Who’s that one person in the room who “knows what the real truth is.”

Hope it doesn’t continue.