Claims about Este Haim's live playing

[MynameisMe]

Never heard of them until now, watched some of their videos. They absolutely can play. Ridiculous that anyone would even question it.

I also looked them up. They jam!
As someone who listens to way old music I am adding them to my streaming collection mix.

 

[Wood and Wire]

I bet they get sick of it. That’s ridiculous and sexist. Keep pushing the rope.

I don't doubt that for a proportion of the naysayers, their comments are rooted in sexism.

But I think an awful lot of this nonsense comes not from the fact they disbelieve a woman is capable, but because in every video (that I've ever seen), Este is completely inaudible in the mix, and flailing wildly, in a way that is unrelated to anything coming out of the speakers.

If their FOH mix engineer would just crank her up in the mix, these stupid statements would stop.







Y'all know there are only two solutions on TalkBass; that band ain't firing their drummer, so we must put the blame squarely on FOH.

 

[atquinn]

While I have no doubt they deal with an overwhelming amount of sexism (especially considering the music industry), groups like Motley Crue and Kiss have been getting a lot of the “they fake it on stage” hate lately as well. Which might be the reason someone would say the claims aren’t particularly sexist.

Those "someones" would be idiots then. I'm feeling alot of while male energy in this thread.

Austin Quinn

 

[LBS-bass]

I think a lot of "The Last Waltz" was rerecorded to make a better movie. But it was members of the band that did the rerecording. You can see parts where the sound doesn't match what Rick Danko is (visually) playing, but Rick's overdubs are great. And it wasn't just Rick's parts. Robbie's as well, possibly others. But nobody claims that the Band used backing tracks or otherwise couldn't play well.

The most on-the-point comment here was the one about Este's bass face. Her famous bass face can't be faked.

Thanks for posting your insights LBS-bass.

I've seen video of Phil Lesh with his band where he actually stops playing but the audio continues. Someone said he's miming to tracks, but once again I think it's just a bad edit and someone didn't care enough. Stuff like that is so blatant that anyone paying attention would probably just leave it out. Do I think Phil needs backing tracks? Probably not. But what do I know?

 

[Killing Floor]

 

[LBS-bass]

Those "someones" would be idiots then. I'm feeling alot of while male energy in this thread.

Austin Quinn

There's some, but there are a lot of people discussing it respectfully.

Are there a multitude of reasons this could happen occasionally to someone? Are there reasons someone might actually be miming? Sure. But there aren't that many reasons a band would complain about something being a career-long problem.

I think it's fine to discuss what might cause this but I don't think it's fine to dismiss their very clear commentary that this isn't just one problem with one video.

 

[fretlessman71]

Those "someones" would be idiots then. I'm feeling alot of while male energy in this thread.

Austin Quinn

As a white male who feels that Este has every right to be pissed, I resent this remark.

 

[6-3-2]

I saw this on Instagram and it's shameful that people feel comfortable saying this sexist nonsense out loud. Clowns really feel emboldened these days. All the more reason to set a good example of respecting other players, period.

 

[selowitch]

I’d rather see someone pantomime well than play “live” badly.

 

[CryingBass]

2 words: Julie. Slick.

 

[6Bass101]

Time out, y'all.

I don't care about the one-off this or that. Anyone can be accused, yada yada yada.

The band says they hear this all the time for their entire careers. That's what people are responding to. Comparing this article with a one-off complaint about someone else who isn't saying they hear this all the time and have heard it their entire careers entirely misses the point.

My experience suggests this experience they relate is likely to be true. Why are you saying that all of us are liars? It's not like we aren't also tired of hearing that one.

When you can all tell me that you hear it all the time too, or you constantly get comments about "wow it's hard to believe you can play like that," you can have an opinion based in experience that I'll care about. Until then it's just the same tired claptrap of people with no clue dismissing the lived experiences of those who do.

Fair point. Makes sense.

 

[Michedelic]

I’d rather see someone pantomime well than play “live” badly.

I would have more respect for a band “playing badly”; everyone, probably even you, has had bad nights, but at least they get up there and do it, keeping it real, with the hope that the boat will right itself by the end of the evening. If I wanted “perfection”, I’d just stay home and listen to albums.

 

[40Hz]

27565235[/URL], member: 292603"]I also don’t see the evidence that this criticism of the artist is rooted in sexism.

27565639[/URL], member: 317378"]That's probably because it's never happened to yo

We all bring our separate life experiences to any discussion table.

And as a result, we all see the world through our own individually tinted glasses. It’s just the way our brains are wired to work. And that’s caused a great deal of pain and misunderstanding throughout human history. But it can be mitigated if we try.

Like one song so aptly put it:

“… there forever remains that change from G to Em."

 

[gln1955]

I’d rather see someone pantomime well than play “live” badly.

Too many music consumers unfortunately share this opinion.

 

[SulzerType2]

Those "someones" would be idiots then. I'm feeling alot of while male energy in this thread.

Austin Quinn

Why bring race into it?

Cheap woke points, then proudly signing off with presumably your real name. Care to revise that 'idiot' remark?

 

[40Hz]

27566489[/URL], member: 40199"]I'm feeling alot of while male energy in this thread.

“Feeling” something doesn’t necessarily make it true. But I do see some name calling, stereotyping, and virtue signaling in a few places.

 

[fretlessman71]

Men are accused. Occasionally. I hear it about Verdine White all the time, and it's possible that this is true because legend acts like that can lose their chops due to age but still need the income.

Women are much more likely to be assumed incompetent without having it be something like that.

Because women are much more likely to be viewed as little more than objects. I swear there are some of us who came from that mentality who are trying to get better.

 

[Rich Fiscus]

I hope you're right. The people I have worked with most recently tend to be in their 50's and I think there was a shift toward backlash against women's rights at some point that hit that generation. When I was young, I was working with mostly men who were older than I was, and I think those men saw that it was a time of change from some severe old norms, and they were at least trying. That was also probably the last generation that was taught to treat women with respect, and even though that notion came out of old-fashioned chivalric norms, that generation seemed to be trying to get it right.

I know that, behind closed doors, things were always said. But at least in public things were fairly comfortable.

I don't think the generation that followed them is trying, and there's a reason for that which is probably not great to get into here in any depth.

I have worked, to a more limited extent, with some younger players who, to their credit, didn't seem to care about either age or gender/sex, so with any luck you are correct and things are moving away from what I've perceived as a backlash against the more open attitudes that prevailed in the 70's and early 80's. But my experience there is limited.

I get women coming up to me all the time and they all use the same word to describe their perception of what I do. They call me a "bad*ss." That's fine with me. I don't mind that I represent. I do mind the perception that skill and talent aren't what get us these jobs.

For the record, the only time I've ever been asked to sync I was doing backing vocals only. We refused to do it. We did sing over backing tracks but there was no one on stage pretending to play. I've never used backing tracks, otherwise, but if I did I wouldn't have people pretending.

As a man in his 50s, with 3 daughters born between 1993 and 1999, I think your observations about both generations is pretty much spot on. Having said that, I taught my daughters they would have to be prepared to stand up for their abilities or qualifications because of their gender. In fact, I had to have that conversation with my oldest when she was in first grade.

We’re a long way from the days when my mom had to choose between her military career and keeping custody of her child, but not so far we should break an arm patting ourselves on the back for it.

 

[No Compute]

I'm feeling alot of while male energy in this thread.

What should I be doing with my pet Alot while having all this male energy? I was thinking of a quick wrestling match or two, but as you likely know Alots are much larger than the average human, so he would probably win easily. But I am open to suggestions.

Snark aside-

Curious timing here. This morning on the way to work (IPod in car is always in shuffle), a version of The Slits’ “Spend, spend, spend” came on.

I thought about how much I liked the bass line on that track (and many others), and it made me think of a comment Tess had made in the ‘Hear to be Heard’ documentary about people never believing that the girls had actually played on the record. And here comes this thread. Hmm.

But I will say- anyone who has seen Licorice Pizza knows that the whole Haim family is pretty good at acting. So maybe that is the origin of the myth?

(Joking, of course)

 

[LBS-bass]

We all bring our separate life experiences to any discussion table.

And as a result, we all see the world through our own individually tinted glasses. It’s just the way our brains are wired to work. And that’s caused a great deal of pain and misunderstanding throughout human history. But it can be mitigated if we try.

Like one song so aptly put it:

“… there forever remains that change from G to Em."

We all do have our own experiences. I've never had a problem with people speaking their own truth. But when they try to override my truth? Big problem with that one.

Sadly it's done so often that people don't even realize they're doing it.