Claims about Este Haim's live playing

[DCGuy]

Anyone know what this is all about?

Haim respond to claims Este is pretending to play bass: "I can’t believe this poopie is still happening"

 

[Killing Floor]

I bet they get sick of it. That’s ridiculous and sexist. Keep pushing the rope.

 

[LBS-bass]

I bet they get sick of it. That’s ridiculous and sexist. Keep pushing the rope.

On two occasions in the past several years I have been recruited into bands only to hear a bit later that they specifically wanted me for my "female energy." Those bandleaders turned out to be the two biggest idiots I've ever had the misfortune to work with.

I still get approached by people who want to tell me how cool it is to see a woman playing an instrument that isn't a piano or a flute. I do appreciate the women who come up and tell me they like what I do - and if that inspires someone else to believe they can do this, I guess that's good. However, I question the value of wanting to do this nowadays, and not just for women.

If people can't appreciate what you bring to the table on its own merit then that's on them, not you. I get so sick of this stuff and I promise you it's worse now than it was when I started doing this in the late 70's. We are not moving forward.

 

[Killing Floor]

On two occasions in the past several years I have been recruited into bands only to hear a bit later that they specifically wanted me for my "female energy." Those bandleaders turned out to be the two biggest idiots I've ever had the misfortune to work with.

I still get approached by people who want to tell me how cool it is to see a woman playing an instrument that isn't a piano or a flute. I do appreciate the women who come up and tell me they like what I do - and if that inspires someone else to believe they can do this, I guess that's good. However, I question the value of wanting to do this nowadays, and not just for women.

If people can't appreciate what you bring to the table on its own merit then that's on them, not you. I get so sick of this stuff and I promise you it's worse now than it was when I started doing this in the late 70's. We are not moving forward.

I think you are. These things always move at a generational crawl. I know it sucks. At least if someone introduces themself as a jerk you know right away.

One of my favorite music blogs/publications is called GoldFlakePaint. They aren’t exclusively gender focused but they tend to push out a lot of great female musicians and writers a couple months before anyone else. Just FYI

 

[ClusterFlux]

Anyone know what this is all about?

Haim respond to claims Este is pretending to play bass: "I can’t believe this poopie is still happening"

The article seems to spell it out pretty well. They're pissed off that after touring for over a decade, they still get sexist comments about their playing. What more do you want to know?

 

[LBS-bass]

I think you are. These things always move at a generational crawl. I know it sucks. At least if someone introduces themself as a jerk you know right away.

One of my favorite music blogs/publications is called GoldFlakePaint. They aren’t exclusively gender focused but they tend to push out a lot of great female musicians and writers a couple months before anyone else. Just FYI

Well, I am not sure. In the 70's we had first-wave feminism and this was prior to any men's movement backlash, so the men I worked with seemed to be sincere in wanting to accept a woman as a peer.

Today it's pretty trendy to go in the other direction, and I have to say that there are women who perpetuate this by playing up assets that are not talent- or skill-related, and that seems to be very acceptable today. I try not to sit in judgment because that's a wave that just seems counter-productive to me, but supposedly it's feminist in its own right as a more modern thing. It's not my brand of feminism.

I know that in some ways these things were always seething under the surface, but the amount of misogyny I deal with today is much greater than it used to be. Ageism probably plays a secondary role here, too, at least for me.

 

[DCGuy]

The article seems to spell it out pretty well. They're pissed off that after touring for over a decade, they still get sexist comments about their playing. What more do you want to know?

Well, perhaps someone on TB has some insight into this particular case, maybe via direct experience with the tour or the artists. While the article does spell it out it’s surely not the definitive account. I also don’t see the evidence that this criticism of the artist is rooted in sexism.

 

[LBS-bass]

I also don’t see the evidence that this criticism of the artist is rooted in sexism.

That's probably because it's never happened to you.

 

[majbass]

I don't know if this person is playing live or not; there are apparently a lot of big popular music acts now using tracks or pantomiming on stage. Who knows.

I will say that among people I know (30s-40s), the "oh that's cute you're a girl in a band" or "it's cool to see a girl playing an instrument and not just singing" sort of nonsense is not common at all. That kind of nonsense typically comes from the 50+ crowd, not from younger people.

So I don't believe that no progress has been made on respecting the craft of women, I just think most people are a product of their times and change little over time.

 

[gln1955]

Well, perhaps someone on TB has some insight into this particular case, maybe via direct experience with the tour or the artists. While the article does spell it out it’s surely not the definitive account. I also don’t see the evidence that this criticism of the artist is rooted in sexism.

Did you watch the video? Why do you think anyone would make that comment?

 

[LBS-bass]

I don't know if this person is playing live or not; there are apparently a lot of big popular music acts now using tracks or pantomiming on stage. Who knows.

I will say that among people I know (30s-40s), the "oh that's cute you're a girl in a band" or "it's cool to see a girl playing an instrument and not just singing" sort of nonsense is not common at all. That kind of nonsense typically comes from the 50+ crowd, not from younger people.

So I don't believe that no progress has been made on respecting the craft of women, I just think most people are a product of their times and change little over time.

I hope you're right. The people I have worked with most recently tend to be in their 50's and I think there was a shift toward backlash against women's rights at some point that hit that generation. When I was young, I was working with mostly men who were older than I was, and I think those men saw that it was a time of change from some severe old norms, and they were at least trying. That was also probably the last generation that was taught to treat women with respect, and even though that notion came out of old-fashioned chivalric norms, that generation seemed to be trying to get it right.

I know that, behind closed doors, things were always said. But at least in public things were fairly comfortable.

I don't think the generation that followed them is trying, and there's a reason for that which is probably not great to get into here in any depth.

I have worked, to a more limited extent, with some younger players who, to their credit, didn't seem to care about either age or gender/sex, so with any luck you are correct and things are moving away from what I've perceived as a backlash against the more open attitudes that prevailed in the 70's and early 80's. But my experience there is limited.

I get women coming up to me all the time and they all use the same word to describe their perception of what I do. They call me a "bad*ss." That's fine with me. I don't mind that I represent. I do mind the perception that skill and talent aren't what get us these jobs.

For the record, the only time I've ever been asked to sync I was doing backing vocals only. We refused to do it. We did sing over backing tracks but there was no one on stage pretending to play. I've never used backing tracks, otherwise, but if I did I wouldn't have people pretending.

 

[JimmyM]

That's probably because it's never happened to you.

I was going to say…guys telling you what being a female musician is like? Spare me! All I will say is keep fighting the good fight.

 

[fretlessman71]

When I see a woman playing an instrument other than piano, flute, or violin, I think to myself, "One more woman who's broken out of the sexist pigeonhole men have been trying to shove them into for centuries - fantastic".

The Haim sisters can PLAY. So can the Villarreal Velez sisters from The Warning. So can Tal, Esperanza, and shedloads of other female musicians, many of whom you've likely heard before but never heard OF.

I am still guilty of seeing someone posing with a bass or guitar, and based on how they're posing, I wonder if it's just a prop. I suppose I saw too many guitar ads with models as a kid, and that's where my mind goes. But I usually try to do research to support or refute my hypothesis. Occasionally I find someone who is clearly more interested in the aesthetic than the musical artistry, but usually they're people who are at the very least trying hard, posting playalong videos from their bedroom or such. Good on them.

All of that said, determining whether someone can play their instrument based on how they look is much like the anti-gay chants heard at last night's soccer match between USA and Mexico: they need to become a thing of the past.

 

[jerry]

Este and her sisters are badasses!

 

[WG Plum]

On bass face alone, there is no freaking way Este isn't playing bass.

 

[LBS-bass]

I was going to say…guys telling you what being a female musician is like? Spare me! All I will say is keep fighting the good fight.

They also like to tell me what I should wear, when it's appropriate to stop attempting to make myself look good (the implication being, I suppose, that there's no point in trying once you're past a certain age), and for some reason when I am having a health issue I am too frail for the job but other people having the same issue are "toughing it out" and being responsible. The list goes on but you get the idea

 

[Cristo]

What it's all about? It looks like someone commented that they didn't think a band member was actually playing bass, and the band got upset.

I have no doubt someone who is playing would be upset at being accused of miming, and also that someone who is miming (but didn't want to be revealed as such) would be upset at being accused of miming.

I have no idea who the artist is, and whether they were actually playing or not, but if not, it wouldn't be the first time someone got on stage and mimed some or all of their performance.

I've got an old Roger Waters concert on DVD and although he certainly looks to be playing on most of it, there is a part where a bass is heard yet his hands are not playing it. Was he miming it all along? Was there a bassist offstage, or a track? Was it an edited spot in the video where they goofed up?

Miming used to be a big enough offense to get a Grammy revoked - now they will probably award one for it!

Having said all that, I did mime one time to a recording of myself playing while filming a TV commercial. It was a strange experience, if you have never done it - it's you playing that you hear, and you are playing the right part with your hands, so it was almost like you are playing it live - except you know you aren't!

 

[fretlessman71]

What it's all about? It looks like someone commented that they didn't think a band member was actually playing bass, and the band got upset.

I have no doubt someone who is playing would be upset at being accused of miming, and also that someone who is miming (but didn't want to be revealed as such) would be upset at being accused of miming.

I have no idea who the artist is, and whether they were actually playing or not, but if not, it wouldn't be the first time someone got on stage and mimed some or all of their performance.

These are all true statements. But doesn't it seem like it's only the women who are accused of miming these days? Outside of Milli Vanilli of course. Can you think of a male performer who spent years playing in bands who was accused of faking it?

I have no idea about the Roger Waters video, but decades of empirical evidence shows that he knows how to play his bass. I'm sure Este Haim would like the same consideration after playing pro for sixteen years, whether you've heard of her or not.

 

[LBS-bass]

I've got an old Roger Waters concert on DVD and although he certainly looks to be playing on most of it, there is a part where a bass is heard yet his hands are not playing it. Was he miming it all along? Was there a bassist offstage, or a track? Was it an edited spot in the video where they goofed up?

Your last guess is likely the correct one.

I've got videos of a band that were made by a guy who couldn't mix properly so I took the raw video and the tracks he recorded and mixed them together again myself. Because I was doing it, I also was able to take the liberty of fixing a few clams I had made by pasting tiny bits of audio in where I had played it correctly. An astute observer will notice that, in those nanoseconds, my fingers aren't exactly doing what the audio says they should be doing.

This isn't uncommon but at a truly professional level with multiple cameras those are the places where they'll cut away to one (other) player or something similar so that nobody can see the edited spot. But sometimes there's no way to edit it out, if all cameras were on the clammer.

In our case it was a cheap production with only one camera being used, so I got what I got and had to work with it.

 

[LBS-bass]

These are all true statements. But doesn't it seem like it's only the women who are accused of miming these days? Outside of Milli Vanilli of course. Can you think of a male performer who spent years playing in bands who was accused of faking it?

I have no idea about the Roger Waters video, but decades of empirical evidence shows that he knows how to play his bass. I'm sure Este Haim would like the same consideration after playing pro for sixteen years, whether you've heard of her or not.

Men are accused. Occasionally. I hear it about Verdine White all the time, and it's possible that this is true because legend acts like that can lose their chops due to age but still need the income.

Women are much more likely to be assumed incompetent without having it be something like that.