Class D Amps?

[HolmeBass]

I know it's already been said that the tone won't be the same, but there's something else about Class D that takes some getting used to.

I'm not really sure how to put it in technical terms, but having owned 3 different Class-D amps (Markbass, Genz Benz, and Eden) I've noticed that they don't "hit" as hard. They're loud, sure... but it's not the same as an equal wattage Class-AB amp.

Anyone else feel that way too?

I do too, but I always get my head bitten off if I say something, so proceed at your own risk.

I will say, though, that the higher power micros do seem to hit harder than lower power micros, which I think is due to headroom being more of a factor in their performance, but while I use micros sometimes and I like them very much, I do agree.

I was always one to think that there was no difference between older class A/B solid state amps and class D, but recently I have started to have doubts. A drummer friend wanted to compare, and we put my ShuttleMax 9.2 up against his old Rane PA head, and darn if the Rane didn't completely hang with the SM, and sounded really good doing so. The Rane was rated at less than 1/2 the power of the SM 9.2, but the SM ratings are "peak power" while the Rane has some sort of avg power rating (RMS voltage maybe?). But hearing was believing. I also found my old Mesa M2000 to be quite comparable to the SM 9.2 into a 4 ohm cabinet. Only my Eden Metro seems noticeably quieter than the SM 9.2. Of course this was all limited by the excursion limits of the cab we were running through, the GB UB 212T, and all done only "by ear" without any attempt to measure SPL levels.

 

[Artobass]

I'm currently running a Genz Benz Streamliner 900 and have had great results with it. I either run it with a GK Neo 212 or Genz Uber 410 depending on my needs. It's not gonna get the all tube sound/warmth but does better than most any other Hybrid or SS amp I've tried IMHO.
At 6.5 lbs. and tone I do like very much, I couldn't be happier. Unfortunately, Genz Benz is no longer so these can only be found on the used market.
A friend of mine has the Carvin BX500 and from what I've heard This amp sounds pretty good as well. Just my .02 cents.

 

[Pilgrim]

I've been a Genz-Benz Shuttle user for the past four years. At age 63 I am careful about the weight I carry, too...no back problems and I plan to keep it that way.

I have the Shuttle 6.2 and I love the sound. Its tube preamp lets me dial up some tube sound if I want it, although it's basically a pretty clean head. The Shuttle 6.2 is docked on a 12" Shuttle cab for a total weight of 36 pounds, and I have a second 2x10 Shuttle cab that's 32 pounds. Both are 8 ohm cabs.

Finding the impedence of your current cabs is critical if you want to keep them. If they're 4 ohms you need a 2-ohm compatible amp.

 

[Passinwind]

I know it's already been said that the tone won't be the same, but there's something else about Class D that takes some getting used to.

I'm not really sure how to put it in technical terms, but having owned 3 different Class-D amps (Markbass, Genz Benz, and Eden) I've noticed that they don't "hit" as hard. They're loud, sure... but it's not the same as an equal wattage Class-AB amp.

Anyone else feel that way too?

I've never found any three amps of the same power rating to all "hit" as hard as each other, regardless of brand, class of operation, power supply topology, or anything else. The only power ratings that work for me are enough and not enough. Link Removed

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

Bayondai,
You may be a little late to the Genz Benz party as they've been absorbed by Fender. That said there should still be some new ones out there, and certainly used, you just can't go to a store and try them out like you used to be able to. Tubey-sounding class D amps would include GK (fusion series with a tube pre-amp), Aguilar (Tonehammer 500), Mark Bass and of course, Ampeg as previously suggested. Good luck.

Buy 'em USED!

 

[HolmeBass]

To be clear, I find nothing at all wanting from the Shuttlemax 9.2 or my new Streamliner 900. Both amps have been stellar in all sorts of gigging situations, and plenty loud enough for my gigs.

But when comparing them to some older "lead sled" A/B topologies rated at far less power, I am not hearing a night/day difference in apparent power. That's all I've noticed, in a completely non-scientific and anecdotal way. And it's not confirmation bias because I went into it fully expecting my Genz amps to blow away the A/B competition.

 

[CL400Peavey]

I think class D is just as viable as any other class of amplifier. You have to understand gains staging though.

 

[Session1969]

Tecamp Puma 500 is a an amazing amp. Seems conservatively rated as well.

 

[JimmyM]

I think class D is just as viable as any other class of amplifier. You have to understand gains taking though.

Viable? Most certainly. I wouldn't use them if I didn't think they were viable. The same, though? I would say not in my experience. Yes, preamps do make a difference as well and I'm not saying no, but I would think that if it were possible to match the performance of a standard class AB amp with a large power transformer, they would do it. Andy says he's done it and since I'm not familiar with the amps he says he's done it with I will take him at his word, but I've yet to have that experience.

 

[pfschim]

You are not alone, I feel exctly the same way.

I'm not really sure how to put it in technical terms, but having owned 3 different Class-D amps (Markbass, Genz Benz, and Eden) I've noticed that they don't "hit" as hard. They're loud, sure... but it's not the same as an equal wattage Class-AB amp.

Anyone else feel that way too?

well, here's a key statement, because many of these amps with Class D power sections are rated a wattages that are far higher than many of their A/B cousins.
I've been looking at this very closely in the past month or so because I really want a lot of headroom (hopefully, pretty clean headroom), and many of the Class D designs are rated between 500w (on the low end) to 800 and 1000w. So, they are (supposedly) putting out quite a bit more certainly than the classic all tube Class A/B designs (200-300w typcially), and exceeding all but the monster A/B designs that are rated around 1kw (ex. Ampeg 4pro and 6pro, Mesa Titan, v12, MPulse 600, GK RB800, 1001 etc.)

then of course there is the OP's original question about watts AND weight - and the Class D's certainly give your back a break.

 

[bayondai]

Well I just looked and the neo 410 and 115 are both 8 ohms.

 

[Jwood]

Well I just looked and the neo 410 and 115 are both 8 ohms.

Then you have a TON of possibilities to choose from. I've been pretty damn happy with my MBFusion 800 this past year.

 

[agedhorse]

I was always one to think that there was no difference between older class A/B solid state amps and class D, but recently I have started to have doubts. A drummer friend wanted to compare, and we put my ShuttleMax 9.2 up against his old Rane PA head, and darn if the Rane didn't completely hang with the SM, and sounded really good doing so. The Rane was rated at less than 1/2 the power of the SM 9.2, but the SM ratings are "peak power" while the Rane has some sort of avg power rating (RMS voltage maybe?). But hearing was believing. I also found my old Mesa M2000 to be quite comparable to the SM 9.2 into a 4 ohm cabinet. Only my Eden Metro seems noticeably quieter than the SM 9.2. Of course this was all limited by the excursion limits of the cab we were running through, the GB UB 212T, and all done only "by ear" without any attempt to measure SPL levels.

First of all, let me correct you on a factual inaccuracy... your ShuttleMax 9.2 is NOT rated using peak power, it's rated using "RMS" power (or more accurately RMS voltage). There is a variety of dynamics modulation circuits that allow the amp to overdrive in a way that's much more similar to older tube power amp designs which is part of the feel of the amp.

Comparing one amp to another tells you nothing in comparison other than one appears more or less loud. It does not address how much power it delivers because the delivered power bandwidth and voicing is certain to be different. I can take the same power amp with 3 different preamp voicings/designs and end up with 3 different appearant loudness levels, and I can play with the control tapers to make an identical power amp appear louder or more powerful than another. It takes power to get deep low end that does not translate into loudness.

If you were to measure the amp (dynamics management must be placed in test mode) with the specified test signal, you will discover that the output power really is 900 watts RMS. I went into a lot of detail about designing around dynamics management in conjunction with the way a bass signal is represented in the real world. Some folks here got it, some didn't, but that's WHY some amps just feel better and have a more useable profile than others. This can be a byproduct of a particular circuit topology, but also can be totally independent of the type of amp or power supply used. It's part of the secret sauce that advanced designers can use when developing products and there are plenty of examples of the various choices different designers have used out in the marketplace. Different flavors for different players, nothing wrong with that.

 

[anavar]

i use Mark Bass Little Mark 2 Head and a 104hr cab. Small, powerful, great sound.

I actually sold my Ampeg Svt 3 pro to help fund buying it all haha. Class d amps are the bizz.

 

[agedhorse]

i use Mark Bass Little Mark 2 Head and a 104hr cab. Small, powerful, great sound.

I actually sold my Ampeg Svt 3 pro to help fund buying it all haha. Class d amps are the bizz.

In the name of accuracy, your Little Mark 2 is not class D, it's class AB (linear) with a switching power supply.

 

[JimmyM]

Ya, not all micros are class D. The Micro VR is also class AB. I don't know that it works out to a tonal difference if you use the same preamp, though. The PF350 uses the same pre as the Micro VR and I think they sound the same except the PF350 hits a little harder and tighter at higher volumes. Used to think the LMII and the LM800 sounded different at one time, but now I wonder if it was just the extra headroom making the LM800 sound tighter at higher volumes. I did a fly gig a couple weeks ago where the rented SVT threw a tube and they brought out a Markbass SD1200 as the backup, and I thought it sounded pretty similar to the LMII except it hit harder.

In the end, who knows and who cares? Bottom line is if I go to one of your gigs, and you're not getting a happening sound, I ain't blaming your gear

 

[StrungLow]

I had a mark bass running through a 410 and it did have power for volume, but the sound lacked depth or character in my opinion..I traded it for a Mesa carbine and omg it was night and day...I'll gladly carry the extra weight The micros don't sound bad and they're certainly easy to move.. I'd think pair one w a sans amp or other effects for the right sound

 

[Brad Johnson]

How you use amplification is critical to the results you get. I can't count the number of times I've seen folks compare two completely different amps by setting the gains and EQ identically.


More often than not the issue isn't the amp. But that's the easiest thing to point to when looking for a culprit.

My Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0 has been killing everywhere I gig. Then again, I turn mine up and let it do what it does. Learning how to control headroom is time well spent.

 

[McFarlin]

We really go in circles with this shizz.

 

[CL400Peavey]

I had a mark bass running through a 410 and it did have power for volume, but the sound lacked depth or character in my opinion..I traded it for a Mesa carbine and omg it was night and day...I'll gladly carry the extra weight The micros don't sound bad and they're certainly easy to move.. I'd think pair one w a sans amp or other effects for the right sound

That is a markbass thing, not a small amp thing.

Pretty sure the carbines are class D or h?