Class D and Neo cabs are the future!

[Korladis]

Yeah, that's a hybrid.

 

[ErnieD]

I see quite a few folks asking about the lightest one-ten or 210 cab for their use. Must be nice. In my predicament I don't think I may ever be able to utilize such a small, single cab(s).

Though I do use a few neo cabs which surely lightens my load and I keep and occaisionaly use my older ceramic driver cabs as they are sorta hard to sell off now and I still dig their tone.

I thought I saw a ad or something where there were these fold away cabs, not sure if they were bass or other. You break em down like you would a cardboard box and fold them out open for use. Or did I just dream that? Maybe that's the next rage, fold away cabs. Break em down to load/unload em. Might work easily in a 1x10 or so cab, if its's feasable.

 

[gbarchus]

Isn't it great that we have all these options!

I am fortunate to have as many amps as I want because I have a day job now. For 12 years, as a working musician, I only had one bass and one amp. If I bought a new bass, I would usually have to sell the other one to pay the rent. I remember buying tube heads, Fender Showman, for $150. Now you'll pay $1000 for the same head. I recently bought a Sadowsky SA200 tube amp for $2500. I bought my first Rickenbacker for $500 new! I just bought a used one for $1800.

There are so many issues involved here and money is just one of them. I think Will33 is right. The Federal Reserve and China are also part of what we are talking about. It's not just a rant.

I have been a die-hard JBL fan for as long as I have been playing. When I was 16 years old I was coveting those aluminum dome speakers. I remember when they first started using ferrite magnets with their E series. The advertising was about how technology had advance so much that we now had a superior product. These new speakers could now handle 400 watts as compared to my alnico D140F speakers that could manage 60 watts RMS. No one was talking about the difficulty of getting cobalt from civil war countries in Africa. Hey, at least it wasn't happening here. Oh, by the way, the cost of the new JBL speakers had increased also. So much that JBL is no longer in the musical instrument business. The closest thing that's still available new is the JBL 2226 for about $365, and to get one re-coned is unreal.

The cost of neodymium speakers: You can get an Eminence Basslite 10" speaker for $75 or a Kappalite 15" for $170 and they will definitely help save your back. However, I'm not in this business to save my back. Not that I don't have sympathy. My disc at the S1 vertebrea has been blown for 20 years. I think it was because I carried my Acoustic 360/361 cabinet one too many times down a flight of stairs by myself.

I remember "throwing" my SVT head on top of the 8X10 cabinets (with dollies) because you only had one chance to get it up that high by yourself. Kind of like trying to ring the bell with a hammer at the local carnival in reverse.

I remember buying a 22 lb. Carver PM 1.5 1200 watt power amp with digital power supply to replace my very heavy Phase Linear 700B. I have never seen such a large power transformer since.

There are good reasons to go light. I have a GK MB150S that I use when I have to take the trains. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to do the gig. I imagine that I could live with a class D amp and neo speakers. But there's something about weight that prejudices me. As great as my Sadowsky SA200 sounds, I wonder if it could sound better with some big iron-core transformers. My favorite speaker cabinet is a 13 ply Baltic birch JBL Cabaret 1X15 with a 26 lb. K145 speaker but lately I've been hauling a couple 40 lb. EA CxL-112E cabinets.

I AM one of those people who claim to hear a difference. But I might just die as an old fool.

 

[KJung]

I guess I'm one of the charter members of the lightweight club, since I purchased one of the first Epifani UL210's that came off the line around a decade ago, and received (I believe) the first 410UL from the first batch (as far as I know, these were the first 'production' neo cabs for bass guitar... or close to it). I received my first Walter Woods in the early 90's (took Walter that long to develop a model with enough ooomph to work in a more 'rock/pop' setting IMO). Prior to that, I purchased a GK400RB from what I think was the first production run... not class D nor switching power supply, but the lightweight, mass produced king of the hill in the 80's. I actually owned the GK1200... or whatever that 'blue and pink' metal GK combo with extension cabinet rig was called (2000.... can't remember the name exactly), that I believe was the first production class D amp for bass guitar (OK, that one pretty much sucked... probably the mid 80's... can't remember).

I can TOTALLY understand those who use big tube amps... totally different thing than any solid state amp.

Those who use heavy solid state amps or non neo speakers are a bit confusing to me. Of course, there are some great non-neo cabs out there (one of my cabs has ceramic drivers), and of course, some nice mid weight solid state heads. However, they sure don't sound any 'better' than the lighter weight stuff now.

Of course, every piece of gear sounds different, and if you go into a Guitar Center and play one GK micro rig or one Markbass rig, and then come out and tell the world that you hate lightweight gear because you happen to not like the voicing of one rig, well, then you deserve the weight There is just as much tonal variation within lightweight cabs and heads as their is between lightweight gear and the heavier stuff.

IMO, and I guess as much IME as any bassist on the planet regarding this particular topic

Edit: To the OP, I think SMPS is the future more than just class D. The most popular and highest selling (as far as I know) 'micro' amp is the Markbass LMII/III, which is a traditional class A/B amp that is small and lightweight due to the power supply.

 

[gbarchus]

Ken,

That AudioKinesis cabinet in your YouTube clips is amazing!

Gale

 

[shoot-r]

My 500 watt head weighs in at 3.8 lbs.
My two Neo 210 cabinets weighs in at roughfully 42 lbs. each.
The whole rig combined weighs less than the tube head I used to drag around by it's self.
To each their own...I'll never go back.

 

[mongo2]

I also like fat, baseball bat necks and basses that weigh at least 9.5 lbs. Nothing feels better than strapping a log to your body.

Except taking it off after 4 sets.


I'm a long time traveller on the road to lightweight rigs starting way back when I used a PV DPC 750, Flite 1x15 and the original SansAmp as a bass rig. I've gone even lighter still with a Shuttle 9 and a neo driver in that same Flite cabinet.

My ultimate lightweight rig for a while was the SansAmp into the FOH whenever possible. When the SansAmp Bass Driver DI came out it replaced the original SA for that role.

 

[Pat C.]

Nothing wrong with Neo magnets or class D amplification, but it seems to me neither has been exploited to full potential. Why after all this time no 75-80 lb. 8x10 or 4x12 cabs (or 35-40 lb 2x12 cabs) boggles my mind a bit.

They're out there: Schroeder 412 (65lbs).

----------

As for the actual OP, the new technology is already taking over. I don't have knowledge of the sales figures, but I'd put money on micro amps dominating the amp sales market in the very near future, if they already haven't.

After over 12 years playing through a 55lb Crown power amp (and loving every minute of it) even I just switched to lighter (but still heavy by modern standards) 21lb Class H, SMPS QSC power amp. And you know what? It works just fine. I did a non-scientific A/B listening test and found that they sound and with some fiddling of knobs they respond pretty much identically. I'm still not convinced that the newest, most efficient, most reliable Class D technology has trickled down to the MI-grade gear yet, but I'm sure it'll get there.

There will always be a market for tube amps, as others have said the question is will that market be big enough to continue to support manufacture of tubes?

 

[NineSpine]

Actually, there's TON's of gear for the home audio market that runs on tubes. It's more expensive of course, but is far dead.

And right after that I siad "and a handful of regressives who refuse to change hardly counts as something still being a standard".

To pretend that tube amps are anywhere close to the mainstream home audio market is delusional.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

And when China decides not to export any more rare earth metals, like neo, to support their defense and computer industries, the comeback of ceramic magnet speakers will be hailed as a tonal renaissance.

Follow the money. China is cutting back on exports of raw materials because there's more profit in selling finished goods. Instead of exporting raw neo to the rest of the world they're choosing to export neo magnets, and for that matter complete neo drivers. That's not sinister, it's good business. And they learned that from the masters: the English, the Japanese and us.
BTW, where do you think most ceramic magnets come from?

 

[Gizmot]

Neodymium speakers have a limited future because the supply of that rare earth material is dwindling. At some point, they will go away. Class D amps can be made that sound spectacular, but most companies cut corners to save money and engineering time.
I'm sorry that I don'y agree that an SVT rig is the nirvana of bass amps - it was good 35 years ago but I think that its possible to do better in a package that's smaller and costs less.

 

[troy mcclure]

The future is now for some and never for others. I went this route last year and now go direct on most gigs using my VT Deluxe as a direct box. Some gigs, I need a bit of stage volume so my Markbass F1 and a 210 neo cab stay in the car just in case.

Some guys tell you, weekend warriors get paid for setting up and tearing down and we play for free. The quicker and easier my setup is, the better. As far as tone, people have been raving about the bass sound since I got the VT Deluxe so, it must sound ok out front.

 

[JimmyM]

Neodymium speakers have a limited future because the supply of that rare earth material is dwindling. At some point, they will go away. Class D amps can be made that sound spectacular, but most companies cut corners to save money and engineering time.
I'm sorry that I don'y agree that an SVT rig is the nirvana of bass amps - it was good 35 years ago but I think that its possible to do better in a package that's smaller and costs less.

it's fine to think that. but if i believed it, i would switch back to ss. i've found a lot of stuff that will cop the tones very well but not that big dynamic feel, therefore most of the time i will use a heavy tube amp instead of the small stuff, and the small stuff becomes a backup rig for impossible load-ins and rainy outdoor gigs. the extra load time is 3-4 minutes at the most and involves a little heavy lifting. big deal. some of my gigs last 4-5 hours. long time to listen to something you don't like as much just because it's easier to move.

and yet, i understand why people like to use the small stuff. nothing at all wrong with it. unlike the anti-tube crowd, i have an open mind. hey, even ampeg makes neo cabs and class d amps.

 

[aborgman]

As great as the new micro-super-light stuff sounds, nothing....I mean NOTHING will beat an SVT and an 8x10.

I agree that right now, nothing light can recreate the SVT sound.

Unlike you, I won't extend that condition forever. I know right now nothing can do it, but I won't say nothing will be able to do it in the future.

 

[Adam Bomb]

I don’t think there’s anything inherently virtuous in either a small rig or a large rig. Even though my tolerance for self-roadying is not what it used to be, when I finally settle into a practice space I like, I’m gonna pick up a huge used cab and maybe even a huge head on the cheap, to leave there. It might be a little harder for someone to walk away with. Fortunately, I like how almost all gear sounds.

--Bomb
Nano Rigs of “Doom” Club no. 1

 

[Tunaman]

I have a 6U rackmount with wireless, tuner, Eden Nav & 2400w poweramp... thats a monster & for a backup I'm looking to pick up the GK MB 500 in case of trouble.
For the monster gigs I'll use the heavy favorite stuff but with MB500 will travel around the house, practice etc.
So 1 of each! Like a Jazz & a Precision eh?

 

[FooHead]

And right after that I siad "and a handful of regressives who refuse to change hardly counts as something still being a standard".

To pretend that tube amps are anywhere close to the mainstream home audio market is delusional.

You're right, it's no where close to mainstream. I never said it was. I just wanted to point out that tubes in the home audio world are more common than most people think...so are turn tables for that matter. I think there's more than a few handful's of regressive folks that have a tube hi fi at home...but they probably are delusional, a lot of that stuff is really $$$!

 

[Scutterflux]

Ya, the cheap ones [tubes] sound great until they crap out on you in 3 months. Trust me, this has happened to me before.

I was referring to cheap nos, but even RCA's are getting expensive. GE's, CBS, Ratheon, sylvania, have fun, you can get the NOS 12ax7 for about the same price as new production. NOS 12au7s 12at7's are typically cheaper. Plenty of good pulls out there, with a ton of life in them. You can look for organ pulls, ie amperex philips Mullard's labeled as electrohome baldwin wurlitzer. etc...
Now, I've had good luck with the tubes I've bought off e-bay, but apparently not everyone else has.

 

[MikeyThrottler]

Yeah, and I'm sure 10 years from now there will be amps and cabs that completely blow the current class D/neo stuff out of the water.

And through it all, the dinosaur amps will soldier on, for the same reason so many guitarists play through Marshalls with a 40 year old design today: It's rock n' roll, and it's tradition.

Some folks want to have the newest, most technologically advanced car out there too, while others are happy with a big, nasty muscle car. Choices. We has 'em.

 

[Bassmec]

Pure Quality? Let me introduce some of you to a very old fashioned ideal.
I hope they manage to improve the input potentiometers tone control potentiometers and output attenuators to a small degree along with the rest of the advances progress has to offer, I might suggest a small design change to incorporate a well tested part or two to improve the long levity of these vital but simple parts. Might add a bit of weight to the package! but hey real quality ain't always possible real small.
This is what I call a real quality volume control:

an admiralty pattern 600 ohm attenuator, it will not wear out or crackle or fail in any way for at least two or three centuries.
Are you boys quite sure you have left enough beef in your lightweight designs, this isn't NASA, nobody needs to actually propel this stuff into outer space you know.
I just see cheep barely serviceable lightweight crap where others see innovation.
But then I think a 5.3 ltr V12 jaguar on nitro without traction control is far more fun than than this: