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Class D "digital" amps. Opinions on performance

I used to have an aggie DB750, now I have a GB Streamliner 900. I'm very very happy. Through a fEARful 15/6/1 it's like the voice of you-know-who.

Richard Simmons?
richard32.jpg
 
you can disagree all you want (everyone's entitled to their opinion). i have several neo cabs (a 4x12 w/2512 II's), two 2x10's w/2510's, a 2x12 with 3012LF's, a 2x15 w/3015's and an accugroove whappo jr. w/neo speakers) and unless it's a fearful 1212/6 or a whappo jr., IMO,there's no way a common neo 2x12 can put out the SPL of an 810.

and BTW, i gig with my '07 SVT ALOT, and play thru it for a couple of hours everyday and it's original output tubes are still running and sounding like the day that i bought it.

I was ready to disagree until I saw the "except fEARful 1212/6". I have an 810e and a 1212/6, I'll take the fearful over the SVT any day, not only does it get at least as loud, it's got loads more extension, giving it the ability to shake a room like the Ampeg never could.
 
100% True statement - digital is digital. No matter how good the best A-D converter is, it STILL produces a square wave output. If you're playing through tubes now, there aren't any of them that sound like a tube amp. They are far from warm and natural. Now, if you want HI-FI dig in, they are definitely that. Also, don't let that (single) tube pre-amp fool ya - it does not warm up the tone, especially when it's sent back through a A-D convertor.



You are probably correct that they don't sound exactly like an all tube amp , but to my ear , the GB Streamliner comes the closest . As far as high-fi goes, most audiophiles prefer all tube pre-amps and power amps for their high-end , hi-fi stereo equipment, because the tube stuff is just warmer and more organic sounding than solid-state stereo equipment ( think McIntosh amps) . They also prefer vinyl records over digital recordings. But , I don't believe all-tube bass amps are designed to produce a hi-fi sound. Let's face it, if the micro amps weighed as much and were as expensive as tube amps, I wonder how many of us would choose a micro. On the other hand , for some musical genres, many may prefer a high-fi sound and choose a micro.
 
Originally Posted by MetroBass

100% True statement - digital is digital. No matter how good the best A-D converter is, it STILL produces a square wave output. If you're playing through tubes now, there aren't any of them that sound like a tube amp. They are far from warm and natural. Now, if you want HI-FI dig in, they are definitely that. Also, don't let that (single) tube pre-amp fool ya - it does not warm up the tone, especially when it's sent back through a A-D convertor.



Class D amps are not digital. No A/D convertors involved.


I think this is what he meant by A-D converter( see penultimate sentence below)

From the GB SL 900 Owners Manual

"POWER AMPLIFIER – The StreamlinerTM 900 uses a state of the art, Class D power amplifier design and a high frequency switch-mode power supply (SMPS) to achieve unprecedented high performance and lightweight packaging. Switch-mode power supplies convert the AC line directly to high voltage DC, then the precision PWM (pulse width modulation) inverter creates a new AC power signal at a frequency more than 1000 times higher than the original wall frequency of 50/60Hz. This new high voltage, high frequency power signal is then fed into a custom high frequency transformer that steps the voltage down, a high frequency rectifier and high ESR filter capacitors finish the process off by converting the high frequency AC signal back to the DC voltages that the amplifier’s internal circuitry uses. One advantage of this conversion process is that the DC power supply rails are refreshed more than 1000 times more often than in traditional linear supplies, thus reducing annoying hum in the audio signal. The high frequency switching is used to reduce the size and weight of the magnetic and filter components while increasing the performance by recharging the power supply rails more often. The Class D amplifier uses digital PWM techniques similar to those in more familiar digital to analog converters to reduce the size and weight by a factor of 10 times that of a comparably rated conventional Class AB amplifier.
Essentially, a Class D amplifier converts the analog signal into a logic level PWM digital signal with a digital to analog converter, level shifts this PWM signal up to a higher voltage and current and then reconstructs the analog signal by passing it through what is essentially a power digital to analog converter. Additionally, we developed our own, proprietary 3DPMTM 3-Dimensional Power Management signal processing techniques to give a distinctly analog feel and sound to the Class D platform. This system provides exceptional performance and dynamics retention even for low frequency applications such as bass guitar."
 
To clarify, class D consists of elements of analog and digital methods. Rather than have the statement above that was clipped from the owner's manual taken out of context let me provide a bit more detail about the blurring between digital and analog in the class D process. It's a little easier to explain what's happening borrowing examples from the digital world but this is not absolutely accurate without the context (hence the "similar" qualifier rather than "exactly")

1. Class D is not purely analog, but it's not digital either. It's a hybrid that consists specifically of NONLINEAR ANALOG SIGNAL PROCESSING TECHNIQUES.

2. The signal is NOT represented as a series of digital words that can be stored or processed, or that consist of zeros and ones. The analog signal is converted to a continuous stream PWM signal that has no start or end other than when the power switch is turned on or off.

3. A PWM signal merely represents the analog signal in a series of non-linear samples whose varying pulse width represents the varying amplitude of the analog signal. There are no ones or zeros, just varying pulse widths. The varying pulse width is not a binary or digital function, it's an analog parameter embedded in what is essentially a clocked pulse stream or a hybrid type of signal... has both analog and digital properties.

4. The level shifter is a "simple" transistor/FET switch bridge. It's either on or off and merely follows the PWM signal which is not "digital" nor is it "analog". Note that I quoted the word simple because while it appears simple in theory, in practice is very, very difficult to do with the necessary precision and timing. Recent introduction of a variety of dedicated integrated circuit chipsets has made this more commercially viable at the high speeds necessary (~500kHz) and the amp can be switching as much as 200 volts and 50 amps at these freqencies too. Hardly simple or trivial in practice. ;)

5. The integration filter is a high power analog integrator that integrates the high level PWM signal, stripping off the "pulse" portion and integrates the "width" portion back into a purely analog signal. It is nothing more than an analog low pass filter, usually 2 pole for audio amps... but again while seemingly simple, it's low passing a high voltage, high current signal.

6. The term "D" in class D has nothing at all to do with "digital", it's just the letter that was available to catagorize the operational type of amplifier, the same way that class G or H describe switched rails (G came before H because IIRC, Hitachi described class G before H was described) Class D has been around in theory since before the 1950's, and there were a few experimental class D tube amps too, just that it took the invention of the power MOS FET to make it commercially practical.

So before folks go off on a tangent comparing class D to digital circuits, or A/D and D/A converters, or memory, or DSP, let's understand the technology so that we don't further the myths and misconceptions. Class D is a very interesting, and really cool (no pun intended) technology, it's simple on the surface but extremely difficult to get right. Almost right doesn't cut it in class D, there's too much happening way too fast to be sloppy.

There are others here who are in this stuff up to their eyeballs as well, I encourage their participation as this is a good learning opportunity IMO.
 
To clarify, class D consists of elements of analog and digital methods. Rather than have the statement above that was clipped from the owner's manual taken out of context let me provide a bit more detail about the blurring between digital and analog in the class D process. It's a little easier to explain what's happening borrowing examples from the digital world but this is not absolutely accurate without the context (hence the "similar" qualifier rather than "exactly")

1. Class D is not purely analog, but it's not digital either. It's a hybrid that consists specifically of NONLINEAR ANALOG SIGNAL PROCESSING TECHNIQUES.

2. The signal is NOT represented as a series of digital words that can be stored or processed, or that consist of zeros and ones. The analog signal is converted to a continuous stream PWM signal that has no start or end other than when the power switch is turned on or off.

3. A PWM signal merely represents the analog signal in a series of non-linear samples whose varying pulse width represents the varying amplitude of the analog signal. There are no ones or zeros, just varying pulse widths. The varying pulse width is not a binary or digital function, it's an analog parameter embedded in what is essentially a clocked pulse stream or a hybrid type of signal... has both analog and digital properties.

4. The level shifter is a "simple" transistor/FET switch bridge. It's either on or off and merely follows the PWM signal which is not "digital" nor is it "analog". Note that I quoted the word simple because while it appears simple in theory, in practice is very, very difficult to do with the necessary precision and timing. Recent introduction of a variety of dedicated integrated circuit chipsets has made this more commercially viable at the high speeds necessary (~500kHz) and the amp can be switching as much as 200 volts and 50 amps at these freqencies too. Hardly simple or trivial in practice. ;)

5. The integration filter is a high power analog integrator that integrates the high level PWM signal, stripping off the "pulse" portion and integrates the "width" portion back into a purely analog signal. It is nothing more than an analog low pass filter, usually 2 pole for audio amps... but again while seemingly simple, it's low passing a high voltage, high current signal.

6. The term "D" in class D has nothing at all to do with "digital", it's just the letter that was available to catagorize the operational type of amplifier, the same way that class G or H describe switched rails (G came before H because IIRC, Hitachi described class G before H was described) Class D has been around in theory since before the 1950's, and there were a few experimental class D tube amps too, just that it took the invention of the power MOS FET to make it commercially practical.

So before folks go off on a tangent comparing class D to digital circuits, or A/D and D/A converters, or memory, or DSP, let's understand the technology so that we don't further the myths and misconceptions. Class D is a very interesting, and really cool (no pun intended) technology, it's simple on the surface but extremely difficult to get right. Almost right doesn't cut it in class D, there's too much happening way too fast to be sloppy.

There are others here who are in this stuff up to their eyeballs as well, I encourage participation as this is a good learning opportunity IMO.

Thank you so much for this.
I never thought that when I started this thread with the words class D (I thought with meaning clear) in parenthesis, that it would open up a can of worms. I thought the fishing was yesterday.
Maybe you can elaborate on why (or whether) some of the designs out there may lack a feeling of control of some speaker loads.
 
bryanspkr said:
Maybe you can elaborate on why (or whether) some of the designs out there may lack a feeling of control of some speaker loads.
I would (with genuine curiosity) ask in what way you felt some loss of control? And as support, could you describe the exact circumstances (the rig, the gig, the volume, how you were playing, how long into the night's show were you, what sounded or felt "off")?
 
The only side by side comparisons were not on a gig. Either at home or in a shop. And only twice using the same preamp. At home, it was comparing My AI head with maybe one of the best. An old hypex power amp. The speakers were very high end. Volt B.250.2. A speaker with a free air 30hz resonance. 4 16ohm units. Then 6. All cabling 10 gauge.
Closed port Q. around .6. Open in the 55 Hz range. With the Hypex, no comparison. Bass was tighter, cleaner and not a hint of over ring. This might be a subtle difference to some (especially for bass guitar) and hasn't been worth carrying an extra 40 lbs.


At rudys in N.Y., I did a similar comparison with a big bergantino cab and a really large head. Maybe an EBS? well something big and heavy. It sounded that.
There have been other situations, but switching the whole head.

Well to me, transient response and some other qualities other than just frequency response are the real clinchers. I'm a bass player and my home system are two Lowthers. No subwoofer either. Many reasons for this. One is the psychoacoustic effect of hearing all the information in the time and frequency domain accurately (Or even inaccurately). You still hear the bass in perfect timber-without the lowest octave. Well maybe better when you are a bass player. Maybe call it the double bass in my old cars 4" speaker effect. Still sounds like Ron Carter. And no or few bass frequencies. I guess I'm just tired of having my ears blasted and my chest thumping. And most rooms anyway really don't handle low frequencies very well.

So I admit. Pounds outweigh sounds for me. I have not taken a head to a gig that weighs more than 5 Lbs. since I bought my first light head. And when I can, My u-Bass replaces my Precision. All about the music anyway.
 
There are a lot of variables that can influence the sound and feel of any amp, but I find things like current capability without engaging protective limiting, overload behavour & recovery, and preamp voicing to be some of the more important factors.
 
There are a lot of variables that can influence the sound and feel of any amp, but I find things like current capability without engaging protective limiting, overload behavour & recovery, and preamp voicing to be some of the more important factors.

Could be that a few of these amps current capability is over rated. So what else would be new?

Years back. A manufacturer whom I won't name, sent me a list of some popular products he had tested to their limits. We had been mailing each other about how little standard there is concerning specs. My main focus was about speakers. His amps. Most products never came close or were what might be called lies of omission.
 
Could be that a few of these amps current capability is over rated. So what else would be new?

and under-rated too, and that many folks in the market place have little understanding of what the individual specifications really mean. This too is not new.
 
Just a slightly different spin on the "digital" thing: What distinguishes a digital system is noise immunity. A digital signal can be transmitted, stored, and copied, over and over with no change. Digital systems are designed to have vanishingly low noise. Digital signal processing is noiseless.

The term for a system with two states is "bistable." A Class-D amplifier is a bistable analog circuit.