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Double Bass Cleveland Orchestra Audition

I knew a long time ago that I'd never make a living as a bass player. Once you accept that, playing the bass is a real thrill. I've been a middle school music teacher for over 30 years and I have my choice of many community orchestras in my area (Boston); I just check out the repertoire they're doing. I know it isn't the same thing, but hey...and it's stress-free.
 
I knew a long time ago that I'd never make a living as a bass player. Once you accept that, playing the bass is a real thrill. I've been a middle school music teacher for over 30 years and I have my choice of many community orchestras in my area (Boston); I just check out the repertoire they're doing. I know it isn't the same thing, but hey...and it's stress-free.

Likewise, I knew a long time ago that I'd never make a living as a music teacher. Once you accept that, teaching music is a real thrill. Teaching is stress-free for me because I can walk away from teaching anytime it does not suit me knowing I can get back into it anytime because of the extremely high turnover in music teaching professions.

Whoops, wait a minute, weren't we supposed to be talking about the Cleveland Orchestra auditions and orchestra auditions in general?
 
Cleveland = FAIL

Although, this was a flip, immature, and knee-jerk response, which I'm sure Grundley would withdraw if he thought he knew he could be identified, the use of the world "fail" is used in a related parallel industry with the same level of competition among job seekers. In higher education searches for music professors (full-time Tenure-track positions), if a search committee is unable to hire someone (and there are routinely 100-200 applications for these positions and even more for the very desirable jobs), the search is labeled as a "failed search," and the search committee is considered a failure as well, and the failure can be held against members of the search committee in annual salary/promotion reviews. The reasons a "failed search" is so upsetting in higher-ed is because, 1) the vacant position then has to be filled with local temporary and/or part time adjunct appointments (called subs in the orchestra profession) of which their qualifications are no where nearly as deep as most of the candidates from far away in the national search, 2) the time and expense of going through the search process again in the following year is a huge drain on resources (some sick individuals get off on the power trip of doing multiple searches and passing judgment on hopefuls and making interim appointments jump and do circus tricks on command, but most search committee members would rather get it done right the first time), 3) in higher ed, there are so many qualified would-be music academics applying for the job, that if a suitable person cannot be found, the candidates themselves are not faulted, but rather the search process and the committee is faulted, 4) like orchestras on the bubble, vacant positions are always considered for elimination by administrators if there is no one on the tenure track sitting in the position. Part of the problem is, whether it's orchestra or music music higher-ed, if administrators see that you can get by with inexpensive subs or adjuncts for years after multiple failed searches, and no one can tell the difference and no one is complaining, the full-time permanent position is in danger of elimination. This is happening already in both professions.

There is an element of "Fail" in no-hire auditions as in "failed searches" in higher ed, but for some reason, and unlike higher-ed, most people in the orchestra profession do not see this as a structural long-term problem and. And unlike higher ed, audition committee members and conductors do not see themselves as failures in finding a colleague. Seeing that vacant positions are getting the axe, the alternatives to a permanent hire are not as deep, the inconvenience of holding another audition, and the general angst that is generated, search committees should be alarmed and should proactively work to optimize their chances of finding the right person the first time around. This includes anticipating and working with the hiring structure (politics, CBA, formal hiring process) of the work place.
 
Yes, we all wish we took the same path as you. And all the hotshots that took the Cleveland audition are wishing they were you, also.

I can really taste the venom in those last two posts.

My question to you all is are auditions really this stressful?

My teacher always tells me about his auditions--he's been playing for forty-something years or more (I'm not even sure how old he is. He's played with Richard Davis, who just turned 88, I believe, and he told me he's not more than ten or fifteen years younger than him).

He always describes auditions as something that wracks the nerves, and this I can understand. For my Youth Philharmonic audition, I was nervous about it until I walked into the room and started playing. But I'm not eating off of the Youth Philharmonic, either, not making car payments off of it and not paying a mortgage with it.

Is it fair to assume that the money aspect and that pressure is what makes it the most frightful? Or the let-down if you don't make it?

Just trying to get a better handle on where all the tension in this thread seems to be coming from.
 
I can really taste the venom in those last two posts.

My question to you all is are auditions really this stressful?

Is it fair to assume that the money aspect and that pressure is what makes it the most frightful? Or the let-down if you don't make it?
Yes and yes to your two questions. But the stress is caused by many other complicating factors that you should seek out and study first before seeking out a forum answer. There have been many formal and informal publications about auditions, audition stress, and handling them, and you should consult them before asking the questions here. Otherwise, you may run off to your first audition eating bananas strung out on inderal and your mind processing a laundry list of audition tips and self-inflicted mind games and in the hole for all the "relaxation" mediation" and audition classes you took.

Venom, eh? In the posts of the posters I was responding to, did you not taste their smug sense of self-validation when they interjected their non-orchestral-bass career "choice" into an audition thread by stating that they were glad they "chose" not to go down the orchestral profession path and end up like the hapless auditionees (great players) for the Cleveland Orchestra and in doing so marginalizing the career choices of those that were good enough and did go down the orchestral profession path (those that really had the option of being a professional bassist and in a heartbeat could walk away and really "choose" to do something else besides what they are doing as orchestral bassists vs. someone that sits on the outside looking in saying they could have been an orchestral bassist but they "chose" not to do so)
 
Simandl Fan said:
I knew a long time ago that I'd never make a living as a bass player. Once you accept that, playing the bass is a real thrill. I've been a middle school music teacher for over 30 years and I have my choice of many community orchestras in my area (Boston); I just check out the repertoire they're doing. I know it isn't the same thing, but hey...and it's stress-free.

I don't think they meant this in an offensive way. I think what they meant to say is that there is an enjoyable stress free way to play the bass without all of the drama and politics of the professional orchestra business, whether in Cleveland or anywhere else. No reason to take offense to it. I would guess more then anything it was a response to the previouse post.
 
Please don't misunderstand my position. I would give anything, ANYTHING, to have had the work ethic, the instruction, the environment, and the equipment to play in a major section. I have auditioned for Buffalo, LA, Minneapolis, and the NYP, always with a polite "thank you very much".

Just for a bit of perspective; a good friend of mine, a retired BSO bassist, once told me about his audition for Detroit back in the 50's...he was the only one to show up. They told him he had the gig, but now that he's come all this way, would he like to play anyway? (imagine that) He played the G minor gamba sonata, first mvt.
 
I know all 3 players from the finals.
They are amazing players esp. charlie. But this is a trend with cleveland to hand pick the section. Most people know this going in. I am sad for those who didn't win, but happy the job is still open!
 
Just for a bit of perspective; a good friend of mine, a retired BSO bassist, once told me about his audition for Detroit back in the 50's...he was the only one to show up. They told him he had the gig, but now that he's come all this way, would he like to play anyway? (imagine that) He played the G minor gamba sonata, first mvt.

Wow! Them's was the good ole days when the required solo piece was the Elephant.
 
Let's focus on the real problem here: Charlie Nilles is cursed and should be banned from all auditions.

Now look, Charlie is a good friend of mine, but he has been a finalist in three "big five" auditions that resulted in a no-hire (in one instance, he was the ONLY finalist for two open positions). He also took part in the Chicago "nobody gets to advance" principal audition.

Don't blame the committees, their inability to resolve disagreements at the audition, the music directors, the lack of transparency, the obscenely long lists, the musician's union, the economy, the false hope instilled by countless professors and music conservatories, the nepotistic tendencies of certain committee members, the questionable viability of a modern symphony orchestra as a business model, or the capricious nature of the American audition system. This is all Charlie Nilles' fault.

Sorry, Charlie.

</snark>
 
Let's focus on the real problem here: Charlie Nilles is cursed and should be banned from all auditions.

Now look, Charlie is a good friend of mine, but he has been a finalist in three "big five" auditions that resulted in a no-hire (in one instance, he was the ONLY finalist for two open positions). He also took part in the Chicago "nobody gets to advance" principal audition.

Don't blame the committees, their inability to resolve disagreements at the audition, the music directors, the lack of transparency, the obscenely long lists, the musician's union, the economy, the false hope instilled by countless professors and music conservatories, the nepotistic tendencies of certain committee members, the questionable viability of a modern symphony orchestra as a business model, or the capricious nature of the American audition system. This is all Charlie Nilles' fault.

Sorry, Charlie.

</snark>


You deserve a hug! LMMFAO
 
Yes and yes to your two questions. But the stress is caused by many other complicating factors that you should seek out and study first before seeking out a forum answer. There have been many formal and informal publications about auditions, audition stress, and handling them, and you should consult them before asking the questions here. Otherwise, you may run off to your first audition eating bananas strung out on inderal and your mind processing a laundry list of audition tips and self-inflicted mind games and in the hole for all the "relaxation" mediation" and audition classes you took.

I could have consulted a book or a publication written by some esteemed member of the bass community I will never know nor meet. I won't ever get to ask him or her how these auditions go, and how stressful they really are, I'll only read: "We all know auditions are stressful."

I don't.

Which is why I asked you. And you gave me a good answer, one that speaks for itself about the situation of auditions in this period of time. Personally, my teacher always tells me not to worry about auditions. To just play, and if you've got the right stuff, you'll know it. And the audition panel will know it, too. By the time you're up for the audition, there's nothing else you can do besides be yourself, don't worry and play.

Venom, eh? In the posts of the posters I was responding to, did you not taste their smug sense of self-validation when they interjected their non-orchestral-bass career "choice" into an audition thread by stating that they were glad they "chose" not to go down the orchestral profession path and end up like the hapless auditionees (great players) for the Cleveland Orchestra and in doing so marginalizing the career choices of those that were good enough and did go down the orchestral profession path (those that really had the option of being a professional bassist and in a heartbeat could walk away and really "choose" to do something else besides what they are doing as orchestral bassists vs. someone that sits on the outside looking in saying they could have been an orchestral bassist but they "chose" not to do so)

Some people don't want to handle the stress, don't want to handle the anticipation and don't want to get their hopes up. Some people aren't confident, some people just don't have the money. Others don't love the music enough to travel for these auditions, and I'm sure many prefer to just play, not compete for orchestral positions. There's a myriad of reasons why somebody wouldn't want to get involved with the orchestral bass circuit and I think it's worth looking and examining at these things, rather than responding with hostility towards them. I've discovered in life that some people are cut out for some things and some people aren't. Some people have the drive, the determination and the love to compensate for their own shortcomings or the situational long-shots they're forced to take, and some people aren't. Sometimes it comes down to fortune and probability of the circumstances, and unfortunately, some draw the short straws. But some people just don't want to be involved in the entire scheme of orchestral music and there's no reason to attack them for that.

It's all personal choice. I intend to be involved with orchestral music as I grow older, and I've come to realize that I really do love the music. I love Dittersdorf and Vanhal, Bottesini and Koussevitsky, and that's a good thing, I think, for a soloist. But I love Mahler and Shostakovich, Bach and Vivaldi just as much, and I can't see myself not playing them as I get older. The music means too much to me, the bass means to much to me and the orchestra means too much to me for me to give up for any reason. I know I'm young and I don't have much experience in this, but I've already faced a lot of challenges as a bassist and as a person and I've never let anything come between me and the music, regardless of money, stress or any other excuse for not applying myself wholly to the bass.
 
Let's focus on the real problem here: Charlie Nilles is cursed and should be banned from all auditions.

Now look, Charlie is a good friend of mine, but he has been a finalist in three "big five" auditions that resulted in a no-hire (in one instance, he was the ONLY finalist for two open positions). He also took part in the Chicago "nobody gets to advance" principal audition.

Don't blame the committees, their inability to resolve disagreements at the audition, the music directors, the lack of transparency, the obscenely long lists, the musician's union, the economy, the false hope instilled by countless professors and music conservatories, the nepotistic tendencies of certain committee members, the questionable viability of a modern symphony orchestra as a business model, or the capricious nature of the American audition system. This is all Charlie Nilles' fault.

Sorry, Charlie.

</snark>

Furthermore, I think the problem stems from the fact that bass auditionees are required to be performing on double basses, and that the Ginestera Concerto for Strings solo is never asked on auditions. Why should we be limited to anything bigger than a 39" string length? I think it's time that a bass guitar is taken into a double bass audition.
 
I don't know where everyone heard that it was a no hire. They haven't finished tallying the online voting, audience favorite, and Bach prize. Word on the street is that if there's no winner, Tim Cobb will be offered both the job and a conducting job at CIM.
 
I don't know where everyone heard that it was a no hire. They haven't finished tallying the online voting, audience favorite, and Bach prize. Word on the street is that if there's no winner, Tim Cobb will be offered both the job and a conducting job at CIM.

I could've sworn I heard rumors about him getting nominated to head up the Philosophy department there, too.