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Click Tracks... To use them or not?

#41
two points. As was said earlier, if it sounds stale playing with a click, it's because your time just isn't good enough and you need to practice. If it sounds good with a click, your time is great and so there's no loss in playing to one. only the gain in knowing that everybody is on the same page. If you're whole band is great and nobody needs a click. You'd be famous by now. go back to practicing.
the other thing is, cher's vocal effect can be done with either a vocoder or auto-tune. you just have to automate auto-tune to get that sound. she still gets no respect from me...
 
#42
May I add an opinion?
As a studio owner (and session bassist) for a lot of years, I doubt that I've recorded a half dozen tracks without a click in the last 10 years (with the one exception being an album of standards I producedlast year). And the drummer for that project had a metronome with him for that record; he'd listen to the temop via metronome, then turn it off and count the song in.

Most of the drummers I work with bring their own drum machines with them and generate the click tracks (sometimes locked to time code from the recorder, sometimes not). By far the most used click is a very short shaker sound; that stock babmoo sound that comes with PT is just as obnoxious as y'all said it was, and a cowbell is too likely to bleed into someone's mic (overheads or, more commonly, acoustic guitar mics). A couple of guys program a loop with congas, shakers, tambourines and cowbells; it that works for them, then i'm happy. but I notice from time to time that a really busy click track/loop can hide some problems that I'd rather hear early in the recording process. So I'm in favor of click tracks, and agree that they don't have to interfere with the groove - at least, not when an experienced rhythm section is playing.

For live gigs, I work with a lot of drummers who have metronomes on stage, but they use them to get a tempo to count the song off - they usually don't run them throughout the night. (Sometimes, though, they are used; a few weeks ago, I was part of the house band for a show that backed 12 different artists (performing 20 or so songs) in a concert environent; the drummer ran a click track for himself all night, which helped keep the band (and the artists) more or less on the same page.

Either way, a click doesn't have to interfere with the music, though like everything else, it takes practice to do it right...
 
#43
In my recent experience what I have found is that since I practice with a metronome religiously, when I go to record, a click track does not cause me any complications whatsoever.

My friend, who does not practice with a metronome, when faced with playing against some sort of click track is thrown for a loop everytime and it actually causes him to play poorly. Now if he is playing against a full out drum beat, he has less trouble, but if he is faced with recording a part against a stripped down beat or a click track, he loses it.

He will argue that the click track is taking away from his ability to play his part. I argue that his part should sound good against the click and the reason he has the feeling he does is because he is not comfortable playing in time. His sense of time is not solid and give him the feeling that the click is speeding up a and slowing down. It also ruins his vibe or mood when he has to do it.

For me, I like the feel I can get when I can play against any sort of time-keeping component, whether it be a click-track, a hand-clap, or a full out drum beat. If it is a click, I can imagine a more filled in beat between the clicks and my part puzzle-pieces in nicely. I don't get the click-track vertigo that he does.

So my conclusion is that you should be comfortable with a click track, regardless of whether one is used or not. You should act like there is always going to be a click-track in your recording situations even if there is not one. I feel that most (98%) of songs should be locked in tight on a meter and should now ebb and flow with the whims of the musician. This is not to say that songs should be robotically rigid - time signature and tempo changes are all very musical things, but as for tempo being 'rubbery' - I say nope.
 
#45
Code: 
var player:String; // Your name here
var okWClick:Boolean; // true or false - can you groove with a click?

function getGroove(player,okWClick){
     if (okWClick){
          return player + "Has no problem groovin' with a click.";
     } else {
          return player + "Can't find a groove with a click.";
     }
}

getGroove("tZer",true);

Output = "tZer has no problem groovin' with a click."

Is a click all by itself groovy? It all depends on how you hear it. I all you hear is click, click, click... then I guess click = no groove. Otherwise, if your head can hear click, click, click and you can lock in on it and feel the beat, anything has groove. My washing machine has groove... my windshield wipers have groove... hell, the regular drip of my leaky bathroom faucet has groove.
 
#46
tZer said:
Code: 
var player:String; // Your name here
var okWClick:Boolean; // true or false - can you groove with a click?

function getGroove(player,okWClick){
     if (okWClick){
          return player + "Has no problem groovin' with a click.";
     } else {
          return player + "Can't find a groove with a click.";
     }
}

getGroove("tZer",true);

Output = "tZer has no problem groovin' with a click."
Click to expand...

Drummer on a click = no groove. May as well use a drum machine. My .02
 
#47
RicPlaya said:
Drummer on a click = no groove. May as well use a drum machine. My .02
Click to expand...

I do not agree at all. A click-track does not automatically mean the groove is gone. That is like saying that groove is completely independent of solid time which is almost the exact opposite of what groove is. Groove is the 'owenership' of solid time. The more you can own that click, the more groovy you are.

If the drummer lets the click push him around, then yeah, no groove there... but if he can climb on top of a click and lock in, he can groove his arse off. Just because a click is, by definition, robotic, does not mean a drummer, bass player or anyone referencing a click has to be cold, plastic and unmusical.

I understand that if you are not used to a click and are more used to letting yourself flux with how you feel time should go, then you would definitely feel restricted by a click track. It is easy even for the best drummer to get lost in the feel of his part and separate from the click - but it does not automatically equate to no groove. A Perfectly fine groove can be achieved when playing with a click - it all depends on the musician.
 
#48
tZer said:
I do not agree at all. A click-track does not automatically mean the groove is gone. That is like saying that groove is completely independent of solid time which is almost the exact opposite of what groove is. Groove is the 'owenership' of solid time. The more you can own that click, the more groovy you are.

If the drummer lets the click push him around, then yeah, no groove there... but if he can climb on top of a click and lock in, he can groove his arse off. Just because a click is, by definition, robotic, does not mean a drummer, bass player or anyone referencing a click has to be cold, plastic and unmusical.

I understand that if you are not used to a click and are more used to letting yourself flux with how you feel time should go, then you would definitely feel restricted by a click track. It is easy even for the best drummer to get lost in the feel of his part and separate from the click - but it does not automatically equate to no groove. A Perfectly fine groove can be achieved when playing with a click - it all depends on the musician.
Click to expand...


Some drummers that play the blues if they play to a nome has it set up where it only clicks on the 2 and 4 of the measure. They say the "real beat" is on the 2 and 4, doing it that way allows you to groove between the snare hits, this is also referred to a dragging the pocket. If you play to a click that is 1..2..3..4 and you lock onto it or climb on top of it, there is no room allowed for the human to manipulate the measure creating that groovey vibe. You can manipulate the measure and still play in time to create groove, or at least that is my definition of what groove is.

I guess you could still have groove to a standard click track, but one would have to at some point use some of the clicks in the measure as a reference and maybe add a little groove around it . So you could but as you said, it's up to the musician.
 
#53
Dave Martin said:
PLease visit Link Removed

Listen to the tracks. Then tell me there's no groove when you play with a click.
Click to expand...


Dave,

The drummer is grooving and dragging the pocket a bit, not playing like a robot.

My main point is with regards to the original poster, he/she posed the question about click tracks. They are a must in the recording relm, but..make sure they are used as a reference within the measure and the drum beat is not as robotic and lifeless as the click itself. Still infuse the human element of groove even though you have that click in your ear. This is what seasoned musicians do, I just want to make that point to the poster that is considering using the click. I have played with many drummers to a click, and they were not able to groove to a click. It maybe because the level of drummers I play with are not pros by any means, they are good for playing drums and being in bands as a serious hobby.
Just my .02
 
#54
RicPlaya said:
Dave,

The drummer is grooving and dragging the pocket a bit, not playing like a robot.
Click to expand...
Actually, though he is grooving, he isn't dragging the pocket; when I solo just the drum track and the click - he's right on it. What you're hearing is the sound of 5 guys (or 4, with the second guitar overdubbed) together, along with a click. And the click was in everybody's headphones.

But I should add that all of us have spent years playing with click tracks on a daily basis.
 
#57
I'm always amazed at how many drummers and for thar matter other musicians do not own a metronome or use one to practice with.

A click is a reference point. You can still play ahead and behind the beat, depending on what the song calls for or the style of your playing. Visualize the beat as a circle. Now you can slice the circle in three parts. The first slice is just behind the beat, the center slice right on the beat and the last slice just ahead of the beat.

Therefore a click shouldn't lose the human feel. It should facilitate the groove. Keep things on the right path, a navigation tool of sorts.

Even if you switch tempos in a tune it should all still be in time. i.e. if your groovin at 110bpm and go to half time it should be 55 bpm.

As a bass player or drummer, time is everything to a good groove.
The best bass lessons I ever got were just clapping to a metronome. If you can clap along in time you will not hear the metronome, only your hands clapping. If you can hear the metronome click then you are not in time. It was a wonderful way of exposing my poor time and it woke me up.

Solid time on a recroding can be the difference. The average listener won't know why they aren't feeling a track but it will be because it's ever so slightly not in the pocket or the beat flucuates back and forth.

Be not afraid of the click or the nome. It's a great tool and the more you play with one the more comfortable it will become. They can be extremely frustrating at first but take your time and it will "click" in one day


My two "clicks"
 
#58
mcbassdude said:
My two "clicks"
Click to expand...

I agree. I hear other musicians dismissing using a click track by saying something to the effect of, 'it throws me off' or 'the song I am playing requires a less rigid time structure' or 'I really want to slow down and speed up' - ugh... These all seem like the comments of the undisciplined - those who do not practice with a metronome and have not learned how that click actually HELPS with your groove and time - when confronted with a click track, their lack of comfort comes to the forefront and interferes with their playing.

Ok, I can give the singer/songwriters out there some breathing room - as long as they are playing solo or with some really stripped down human accompaniment. But when it comes to standard, full-band, modern music meant for the general listening public, the only reason anyone would record without a click track would be simply because they cannot handle playing against one and it really does mess them up.

Sometimes you go ahead and go without because recording 'something' is better then nothing and for the most part, as long as your timing is not completely outta whack, no one will know the difference. But without the click, you better have some pretty amazingly accurate timing genes.
 
#59
The reason I never use a click,is because I personally have no use for them.

I've played with some of the most talented drummers in the world one being the legendary king of groove Bernard Purdie,who originally got into the business of studio work because recordings,even some that were recorded to a click were still off and he would be called in to fix the groove(re-record the drummers part because their timing was so off).He's so good at it that it became a no brainer.That's how he first came into contact with Donald Fagen and Walter Becker of Steely Dan fame.
 
#60
JAUQO III-X said:
The reason I never use a click,is because I personally have no use for them.

I've played with some of the most talented drummers in the world one being the legendary king of groove Bernard Purdie,who originally got into the business of studio work because recordings,even some that were recorded to a click were still off and he would be called in to fix the groove(re-record the drummers part because their timing was so off).He's so good at it that it became a no brainer.That's how he first came into contact with Donald Fagen and Walter Becker of Steely Dan fame.
Click to expand...

There are exceptions to every rule and you are probably one of them, however there is a reason the majority employ the click. Some, a rare few are born with an inate internal clock and sense of time. Those of you are truly blessed.
The rest of us have to dial in our clock and a click and nome are the way to go about it. It's just like muscle memory, the more you work with the click and nome the more your internal clock gets calibrated.

A rare few ballplayers can park a fastball everytime and never go to batting practice, most are not so lucky. You have to hone that timing and skill.
So unless you fall into that small group of the exception I would highly encourage others to learning to work with a click and a nome. They are great tools for calibrating your internal clock.
Thats all I'm saying, thats all I'm trying to say :)
 

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