Click Tracks... To use them or not?

[bassicinstinct]

I agree. I hear other musicians dismissing using a click track by saying something to the effect of, 'it throws me off' or 'the song I am playing requires a less rigid time structure' or 'I really want to slow down and speed up' - ugh... These all seem like the comments of the undisciplined - those who do not practice with a metronome and have not learned how that click actually HELPS with your groove and time - when confronted with a click track, their lack of comfort comes to the forefront and interferes with their playing.

Ok, I can give the singer/songwriters out there some breathing room - as long as they are playing solo or with some really stripped down human accompaniment. But when it comes to standard, full-band, modern music meant for the general listening public, the only reason anyone would record without a click track would be simply because they cannot handle playing against one and it really does mess them up.

Sometimes you go ahead and go without because recording 'something' is better then nothing and for the most part, as long as your timing is not completely outta whack, no one will know the difference. But without the click, you better have some pretty amazingly accurate timing genes.

+1000!!!

Perfectly put, IMHO.

 

[agreatheight]

Use it, and use a recording program that you can program all the tempo changes.

+1. Most recording programs can do all kinds of tempo changes including speeding up and slowing down.

As for whether or not you use a click it depends. Much of modern sounding music is practically metronomically perfect so playing to a click track is practically required. On a lot of major label recordings drummers play to a click and then they are sampled / quantized or time corrected. And that's fine, but if you are going for something else, a looser feel, than by all means skip it.

Me? I record to a click, I like the tightness of it, but I know it's a personal choice. I suggest it to those I record, but I do not push it.

Good luck!

 

[JAUQO III-X]

A rare few ballplayers can park a fastball everytime and never go to batting practice, most are not so lucky. You have to hone that timing and skill.
So unless you fall into that small group of the exception I would highly encourage others to learning to work with a click and a nome. They are great tools for calibrating your internal clock.
Thats all I'm saying, thats all I'm trying to say

I understand exactly your point.There is a sub culture in music today from two spectrum's,the business with it's micro wave sensibility of lets hurry up and get this out of here and simple musician laziness,a lot of musicians figure,just play to a click and fix it later in pro tools.I have seen this attitude on many occasions.Once there was a dj/producer that had me and Billy Dickens play on some of his recordings(not on the same songs)and all he wanted us to do was play a couple of measures and that was it,he just looped what he wanted and called it a day.

Again what's the point of a band rehearsing and getting their tunes tight only to get in the studio to play to a click and in some cases this is their first introduction to the use of a click and while not at all being familiar with it,it's simply valuable studio time wasted when all they had to do was play what was so tightly rehearsed(if it was to begin with).

 

[tZer]

I understand exactly your point.There is a sub culture in music today from two spectrum's,the business with it's micro wave sensibility of lets hurry up and get this out of here and simple musician laziness,a lot of musicians figure,just play to a click and fix it later in pro tools.

Click-tracks definitely facillitate post recording edits. And, of course you are right about the pro world where experienced musicians can pretty much do anything they want and it sounds amazing, click-track or no - which is why they are the pros and keep getting the gigs.

But when it comes to someone asking the question, "To click or not to click?", I feel it is a no-brainer to say, "Click". Simply because when those who can 'click' are in a situation where they don't have to, it is not a problem - their time is probably rock-solid because of their 'click-worthiness'. But if you were to tell a person not to worry about learning to work with a click-track, and they suddenly are in a studio situation where they need to play with one, they would be a bit snuffed, don't you think?

EDIT: After a little more thought, this; If the question is, "Should I learn to play with a click-track?" - my answer a resounding, "YES" - however if the question is actually, "Should I record with a click-track?" the answer gets more complicated. Are you alone, laying down a line against nothing? Well then absolutely! Are you in the studio with your band who has played together for years and has never rehearsed with a click-track? Well then you probably do not want to introduce the complications that a click-track will inevitably bring up.

I think in the ideal situation, everyone would be able to work with a click-track and thusly be better equipped to either do so or not, depending on the 'feel' of the situation.

 

[mcbassdude]

Again what's the point of a band rehearsing and getting their tunes tight only to get in the studio to play to a click and in some cases this is their first introduction to the use of a click and while not at all being familiar with it,it's simply valuable studio time wasted when all they had to do was play what was so tightly rehearsed(if it was to begin with).

This is the part the bemuses me. The number of cat's who never practice to a time reference i.e. a metronome. Then when presented with the task of playing with a time reference indeed they struggle.
More often than not I record a demo and we have to kill the click because the drummer can't hang with it.
I always chuckle when I hear them say " I think something is wrong with that click" because it's exactly how I felt the first time I sat down and clapped to a metronome.

Again for me time was something I had to hone and a metronome/click really helped me "hear" time. The more I do it the more that "muscle memory" kicks in.
Out

 

[JAUQO III-X]

But when it comes to someone asking the question, "To click or not to click?", I feel it is a no-brainer to say, "Click". Simply because when those who can 'click' are in a situation where they don't have to, it is not a problem - their time is probably rock-solid because of their 'click-worthiness'. But if you were to tell a person not to worry about learning to work with a click-track, and they suddenly are in a studio situation where they need to play with one, they would be a bit snuffed, don't you think?

To answer the question "To click or not to click"? has no point if the user doesn't have good timing to begin with or doesn't work on or has never worked on developing good timing.A click will not turn a groove less musician into having good to great timing just because a click is running.To work with a click track is simply to work with ones timing in general(something that should be on point to begin with),therefore when the musician is faced with having to use a click,there should be no problems because all a click would be to them is some thing that their already familiar with.

 

[bradjonesbass]

If you use a click track, try to imagine the click as a percussion instrument, not a metronome. That will keep things from getting robotic, while still maintaining perfect time. I was working with a very talented, but inexperienced 16-year-old drummer once who was really struggling playing with a click track. Once we got him to picture the click as a percussion instrument, it relaxed him and the songs developed a much stronger groove.

As to autotune... that is why we have a mass of extremely hot-looking, bland sounding female singers on the scene. I can't imagine any "real" singers needing it ever, but that is the world we all live in now. I mean Aretha isn't the best looking woman on the earth, but wow can she sing! Had they been able to autotune some hot young thing back then, we probably would never have had the good fortune to be exposed to her amazing talent. I could go on for days about the evils of this new technology being used for wrong, but I won't... Damn MTV to hell forever.

 

[tZer]

JAUQO III-X - I do agree with your points. The thread evolved and sort of got away from the original context - I am to blame as much as anyone for this. But the original context was that his band has already established their songs feel independent of a click-track. The songs have their grooves rooted in a fluxuating time sequence that a click-track not help. Some of the folks (not me) who paid attention to this and advised some time-tracking suggestions seemed to be offering a nice, both-worlds solution that would allow for post-recording edits in things like Pro-Tools. Kudos to you who pay attention.

So, the answer to the original question; in their situation it would appear that a click-track would do nothing more then complicate their scenario.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

So, the answer to the original question; in their situation it would appear that a click-track would do nothing more then complicate their scenario.

Exactly.

 

[RicPlaya]

The reason I never use a click,is because I personally have no use for them.

I've played with some of the most talented drummers in the world one being the legendary king of groove Bernard Purdie,who originally got into the business of studio work because recordings,even some that were recorded to a click were still off and he would be called in to fix the groove(re-record the drummers part because their timing was so off).He's so good at it that it became a no brainer.That's how he first came into contact with Donald Fagen and Walter Becker of Steely Dan fame.

I bet you guys grooved your **SES off! If the drummer is good and laying down a great groove, and the bass player is locking on that groove that is all that matters. So the time isn't 100% perfect..sometimes it's not suppose to be.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

I bet you guys grooved your **SES off! If the drummer is good and laying down a great groove, and the bass player is locking on that groove that is all that matters. So the time isn't 100% perfect..sometimes it's not suppose to be.

I have a trio recording coming out that features Bernard Purdie in the Drummers throne.If the groove is intact and flowing just right(and there is no use of a click)then to me it really is perfect.

check out some of the grooves here(no click track anywhere in the studio).

myspace.com/jauqoiiix

 

[Rick Brienzo]

Click tracks do have their place in the studio as tool and a problem solver, but I don’t think they should be used as a crutch. They should be utilized in rehearsal and practice religiously. The whole band will reap the rewards of practicing with one.

To me modern recorded music has really gone down the tubes. It seems that everyone is trying to achieve absolute perfection in their recording and I understand that need. But in doing so we are completely loosing the human element and sucking the life out of the music because we can, and have equipment to do so.

With the ability to autotune, track with a click, edit, and fix every minor detail in the mix we will eventually have some very stale tunes to listen to. Or at least our kids will.


Questions to every one.

If James Brown used a click track would his (groove} be any better?
If Bob Dylan used autotune would his songs still stand the test of time like they do?
If Led Zeppelin had copied and pasted all the parts to their songs would the music still have the same impact?
If you put to much salt on your french fries will you still taste the potato?

To answer the question to click or not.
Practice with one and use in moderation when recording.

And yes I am guilty of using all of the above techniques in the studio.

Sorry for the rant!

 

[RicPlaya]

I have a trio recording coming out that features Bernard Purdie in the Drummers throne.If the groove is intact and flowing just right(and there is no use of a click)then to me it really is perfect.

check out some of the grooves here(no click track anywhere in the studio).

myspace.com/jauqoiiix

I dig it!

I really want to hear you new album! I am a big fan of Bernatd Purdie.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

I dig it!

I really want to hear you new album! I am a big fan of Bernatd Purdie.

Thank you.

I'm in and out of the studio mixing the CD with plans to release it soon.

 

[RicPlaya]

Thank you.

I'm in and out of the studio mixing the CD with plans to release it soon.

BTW...monster slap technique!

 

[JAUQO III-X]

BTW...monster slap technique!

Thanks,I'm only trying to be my self.

 

[tZer]

Questions to every one.

If James Brown used a click track would his (groove} be any better?

They might be, rabbit, they might. - James was notorious for being a slave driver - fining people for not coming in on time or for losing the groove. Maybe if click-tracking and modern recording techniques were as technologically advanced as they are today he might insist that everyone lock to the click and not lose the groove. One time... on the good foot!

If Bob Dylan used autotune would his songs still stand the test of time like they do?

Of course not... but that really has little to do with a click track. Studio and techno-trickery in any form is generally compensating for lack of content anyway - so Bob would have had no need for such a thing. The content of his songs was rather uneffected by his odd, less then melodic, voice. It had/has true substance that transcends the simple confinds of a typical song.

If Led Zeppelin had copied and pasted all the parts to their songs would the music still have the same impact?

Again... of course not. But did Jimmy Page use a lot of studio trickery that many 'purists' would consider 'less then pure'? Well, yep. Overdubbing out the wazoo, delays, choruses, backwards masking... you name it... tricks and available technology was utilized, make no mistake. And some would accuse them of doing that to compensate for lack of skill... Not me... but some.

If you put to much salt on your french fries will you still taste the potato?

Uh, no?

To answer the question to click or not.
Practice with one and use in moderation when recording.

And yes I am guilty of using all of the above techniques in the studio.

Sorry for the rant!

Ok... there's the path we started down originally... I can't get the salty french fry taste outta my mouth...

No prob for the rant! Thanks for contributing!
--tz

 

[Rick Brienzo]

They might be, rabbit, they might. - James was notorious for being a slave driver - fining people for not coming in on time or for losing the groove. Maybe if click-tracking and modern recording techniques were as technologically advanced as they are today he might insist that everyone lock to the click and not lose the groove. One time... on the good foot!

One time I did sound for a band that had blues singer/guitar player like that. The drummer used a beat bug on his snare so when the guitar player would yell at him for playing to fast or too slow he would turn the beat bug meter around to show him that the were in fact playing the right tempo. During sound check every song they played was argued about and the drummer always won.

 

[agreatheight]

If James Brown used a click track would his (groove} be any better?
If Bob Dylan used autotune would his songs still stand the test of time like they do?
If Led Zeppelin had copied and pasted all the parts to their songs would the music still have the same impact?
If you put to much salt on your french fries will you still taste the potato?

But by the same point, would NIN be the same without the mechanical feel? It's not just a judgement of musical ethics, it's also an issue genre and generation. I love all of those acts, but they are from a different time, a different ethic, a different aesthetic.

 

[Rick Brienzo]

But by the same point, would NIN be the same without the mechanical feel? It's not just a judgement of musical ethics, it's also an issue genre and generation. I love all of those acts, but they are from a different time, a different ethic, a different aesthetic.

No NIN would not be the same. And I do agree that some genres need the click. It's part of the feel and sound of the music they are creating.

But..... In a lot of studio situations the click track is automatically employed weather it is needed or not irregardless of musical style or intended feel. They just want to use it so the producers can edit and comp drum tracks with out a lot of headaches, and to make a super slick product.