wow! tough question. We use one in some of the groups I work with but just to establish the ballpark tempo. Everyone in the band, especially the bass and drums, should be able to keep the tempo at a resonable place without too much fluctuation. Music should breathe; not be stiff. When I've used one recording I find that everyone is listening to the click rather than each other. This makes for very uncreative tracks. So I think using a click to keep everyone honest, at first, os okay, but then turn it off and work on parts.
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Click Tracks... To use them or not?
- Thread starter MakiSupaStar
- Start date
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
BulkHead said:
But there are a lot of exceptions - like when you walk in and have to play unfamiliar music with cats you've never played with...commercial sessions, demos, whatever. Then it's got to be right, or you won't get called again.
I like a track to "breathe" as much as anyone, but I've also heard that term to used to justify crappy tracks. I think for players starting out, the sooner you get used to working with a click, the better off you'll be.
I stand by you're best off being really comfortable going with or without. If one or the other bugs you, you've got something to work on and get over.
I'm all for "live" recordings. Click tracks do not bother me all that much in my limited experience of having been subject to them, but I agree with much of what the aforementioned posters had to say about capturing the essence of the music by approaching the first recording as -the- recording.
I can deal with click tracks. My mission as I see it is to make them disppear in the headphone mix - the minute you hear the click, it means something is wrong with the tempo.
The thing I hate about them is the TONE --almost all click tracks sound to me like a pair of bamboo sticks being smacked together. Sometimes I feel like I'm being caned when playing with a click.
Anyone ever try to talk an engineer into making the click track sound like a kick drum? I did that with a solo project once, and it worked great for me as a bass player playing acoustic guitar and singing scratch tracks.
The thing I hate about them is the TONE --almost all click tracks sound to me like a pair of bamboo sticks being smacked together. Sometimes I feel like I'm being caned when playing with a click.
Anyone ever try to talk an engineer into making the click track sound like a kick drum? I did that with a solo project once, and it worked great for me as a bass player playing acoustic guitar and singing scratch tracks.
unbasslichkeit said:
Good post. The "bamboo" sound is one of my least favorites. The "cowbell" seems to cut through the headphone mix the best, but after a day of that you're sure you've lost some brain cells.
Getting back to the question--
I've recorded with bands without using a click.
I've recorded with bands using a click.
I've recorded on exactly one jingle session using a click (the jingle had to be exactly 15 seconds long-- no way not to use a click).
I've rehearsed with bands using a click.
I've rehearsed with bands where only the drummer is hearing the click (through headphones).
I've played live with bands where only the drummer is hearing the click (through headphones).
There was one case back when I was a beginner and I was listening a bit too hard to the click during a recording... everyone else wasn't listening as hard... the result was that I sounded like I was rushing in some places. A good lesson.
I still maintain that if the musicians are good enough, they can use a click without sounding stiff.
But it's just a tool. You don't always want to use one. If the music really needs to breathe (Rolling Stones: messy but grooving; Beethoven violin sonata: no regimented pulse) you absolutely don't want it.
MysticMichael said:
What I meant by "establish" was layout the timing and rhythm section on which the whole song is established for recording...
Some great advice here. Rehearsing is not really a problem. We rehearse together about 2-3 times a week. Personally, I practice with a metronome all the time, I know that our drummer doesn't. But with that said we "lock" pretty good, but we've noticed that we've all become accustomed to little, ever so slight, tempo fluxes and we have gotten pretty good at spontaneously adjusting to them. There's no real "one" culprit, it's kind of part of the bands dynamic.
Still I beleive that if the songs are built around a steady click track, it would "sound" like something we could present to a radio station or something. What I want is this. A song recorded with a click track that still captures our live energy. Are the two diametrically opposed? Is this possible?
BTW. The opinions and advice have been great thus far. I'm printing this out the boys.
jasonbraatz said:
Any suggestions on what to use Jason? We've got an engineer guy that we've hired. I think he's using Pro Tools. Does that do it?
dougjwray said:
Hey some great ideas here. Perhaps just myself and the drummer have the click in our headphones. That might solve some of our problem. I totally agree with that bamboo caining thing. A kick drum would be nicer, more "natural".
This is all great stuff guys. I'm really getting a lot of good stuff from everyone.
Totally agree with you Doug.
I played with a band for a couple of years in which the drummer played to click track through headphones and the band then locked into the tempo set up by the drummer.
It certainly made for a VERY tight live sound, but I can't help thinking that, from the drummer's perspective, experiencing that situation 4 or 5 gigs a week on an ongoing basis can't have done much for his mental health.
On the other hand, noe of us should get too sniffy about it. It seems that those who can do it don't have a problem with the concept but those that can't/won't think it is evil incarnate. Sounds a little bit like the argument that reading music makes you play without soul. 
It's a tool like anything else and, if it gets the job done, it's OK by me.
I played with a band for a couple of years in which the drummer played to click track through headphones and the band then locked into the tempo set up by the drummer.
It certainly made for a VERY tight live sound, but I can't help thinking that, from the drummer's perspective, experiencing that situation 4 or 5 gigs a week on an ongoing basis can't have done much for his mental health.
On the other hand, noe of us should get too sniffy about it. It seems that those who can do it don't have a problem with the concept but those that can't/won't think it is evil incarnate.
Sounds a little bit like the argument that reading music makes you play without soul. It's a tool like anything else and, if it gets the job done, it's OK by me.
FWIW, just my $0.02, IMHO.
I like a click during the intro of a song, but not through the whole song. To me, it's distracting, not that I can't do it, not that I can say I can either. A click track is just like anything else in music, if you and your group like it, then use it, if not, then don't. If you or your band has major timing issues, then use it, until you find out the cause of the timing issue. I for one have always felt a band should sound just as good/bad on an album that they do live. I hate getting a perfectly done album only to see them crash and burn live. If you can't play the music in a live situation, then there's more issues than trying to play along w/ a click track.
Final thoughts, what about all the great musicians and even bassist that didn't have "perfect time" but made you sway and groove to their groove?
I like a click during the intro of a song, but not through the whole song. To me, it's distracting, not that I can't do it, not that I can say I can either. A click track is just like anything else in music, if you and your group like it, then use it, if not, then don't. If you or your band has major timing issues, then use it, until you find out the cause of the timing issue. I for one have always felt a band should sound just as good/bad on an album that they do live. I hate getting a perfectly done album only to see them crash and burn live. If you can't play the music in a live situation, then there's more issues than trying to play along w/ a click track.
Final thoughts, what about all the great musicians and even bassist that didn't have "perfect time" but made you sway and groove to their groove?
MakiSupaStar said:
This is perfectly normal - and preferable. It's what we mean when we refer to allowing the music "to breathe". As long as the tempo fluctuations are indeed quite subtle, and occur in places in the music that are natural and intuitive for them to occur.
MakiSupaStar said:
Perfectly possible. Happens all the time. The key point is to balance the discipline of the click, with the spontaneity of playing without it. It all depends on how good the band's basic timing really is. Just bear in mind that if/when you need to punch in any parts, doing so could be very tricky if the tempo of the backing track is veering all over the place...
I used to play with a keyboardist who dropped beats all the time. What's worse, he didn't even realize he was doing it.
Now that's the kind of player who could benefit from a click...MM
The biggest problem with click is that it requires the song either to be in one fixed bpm, or to very consciously decide before playing exectly where to have exactly what bpm changes (instead of doing that naturally).
Look, for example, at bpm changes in 'I Feel Good' (google found an interesting analysis at http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul01/articles/grove1.asp)
You can't do that when playing to a click track.
Even simple effects like a slight increase in tempo at choruses (and different increases in different choruses); and slight slowdown or speedup at the final part of the song - it's quite a hassle for a click track, and very easy without it - and such tempo variations are a Good Thing in many songs.
Look, for example, at bpm changes in 'I Feel Good' (google found an interesting analysis at http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul01/articles/grove1.asp)
You can't do that when playing to a click track.
Even simple effects like a slight increase in tempo at choruses (and different increases in different choruses); and slight slowdown or speedup at the final part of the song - it's quite a hassle for a click track, and very easy without it - and such tempo variations are a Good Thing in many songs.
MysticMichael said:
A way to do this is to record a decent take of the song with all of you playing together naturally, with all the tempo changes that fit the song, and then use the drum track from that take as a 'reference click track' for other instruments so that you can punch in parts as needed.
Dievs said:
True. Also, it's really not very hard to overdub when you've recorded without a click, in cases where: 1) the band members are very familiar with each other and with the material; and also if: 2) you have the time to hear the basic track you've just recorded, over and over-- you become intimately aware of where the tempo fluctuations are, in that take. Once you introduce loops or sequenced parts, of course, you need that click.
A funny thing: I remember reading many years ago about how a stop-start "speed metal" band (either Megadeth or Metallica-- I can't remember which) used pretty complex click programming to pull off the multiple tempo changes in their songs. I was surprised, because I would've expected a rock band to be politically opposed to a click track, and also because it hadn't occurred to me that someone would employ a click to record a song with many different tempos in different sections (each of them strictly regimented and tightly executed, of course). Usually, you think of it as a tool to keep you firmly planted in one tempo.
A band I recently left had a drummer who relied completely on a click track not only for rehearsals, but also live performance. I think it's fine for personal practice, but he was so zoned on the click I could never make eye or any other kind of contact with him while playing. Never had to deal with that before and I think it interfered with whatever potential tightness we could have brought to the table.
As far as click sounds go, I don't like a kick - it's too overbearing. I usually use a side stick - it keeps you honest without being too authoritarian. The bamboo is cool too. I hate that real electronic sounding one that's just a noise generator through a pulse wave VCA - that IS distracting.
Obviously you can't do a tune like the Stone's Midnight Rambler with a click, but if the tempo is static there's no reason you shouldn't be able to cut a great feeling track using time reference. I had the good fortune of learning this when working with a world class studio drummer, the late Larrie Londin, back in the 80's.
Obviously you can't do a tune like the Stone's Midnight Rambler with a click, but if the tempo is static there's no reason you shouldn't be able to cut a great feeling track using time reference. I had the good fortune of learning this when working with a world class studio drummer, the late Larrie Londin, back in the 80's.
All I gotta say is that if you can groove a click, metronome, or drum machine (with strict sync) then you know you have the skills to pay the bills.
IMHO this is exactly what helps you develop feel. If I hear music that has less than perfect time, when that is not the goal, I cringe.
If you can't do it, then this should be your short term goal It's mine for sure! I'm far far far far far... far from perfect heh.
IMHO this is exactly what helps you develop feel. If I hear music that has less than perfect time, when that is not the goal, I cringe.
If you can't do it, then this should be your short term goal
It's mine for sure! I'm far far far far far... far from perfect heh.
