Cliff Burton Hype

[MtManiac]

I don't know anyone who ever heard of Talas untill the train wreck that was Mr Big arived on the scene. As far as Manowar. Are you refering to the "true" metal heads who dressed like gay bikers?

No, that was Judas Priest. And yes, that is where they got the style from, the macho home thing. "Eat Me Alive" is also about that. It's also a wicked song.

I'm a long way away from wherever Talas was from, and I knew of them around 1983 or so. They were pretty popular among metal musicians. What's Mr. Big?

 

[f'nar f'nar]

Cliff was a good bassist. He wasn't a musical genius, he got the job done and he got it done well unlike many of the metal bassists at the time (with a few notable exceptions).

As for pulling teeth, it's not about the first half of melodic arpeggios etc. It's about the second half where Cliff just unleashes. At least, thats what the song is for me.

Also look at Cliffs writing skills, alot of Metallica's most classic songs where written predominantly by cliff: Sanitarium, Orion, Master of Puppets, Call of Kthulu etc.

Plus, Cliff was a denim clad, head banging, VW van driving, Misfits loving cool, down to earth guy. Whats not to love?

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Metalheads knew who Manowar and Talas were in the early 80s, before Kill Em All was released. Maybe not the AC-DC variety of metal heads, but the real metalheads knew who they were.

Just so you know. Monowar's first album came out in 1982. Although Talas released their first EP in 1978, they had no national exposure until they opened up for VanHalen in 1980. Even then they were considered "glam" metal and didn't get a record contract releasing the next two albums independently. They never really got over the hump of being a regional draw. As far as I could tell from what little research I did, they never even headlined a major tour.

Venom's first album was released in 1981.

Celtic Frost's debut was in 1984.

Slayer's first record was in 1983.

Kill 'Em All was released in 1983. Venom is the only band you mentioned that can be legitimately said to have been around for any appreciable time before Metallica came out. Adjust your recollections accordingly.

 

[Gramtron]

I think Victor Wooten would find any Metallica song pretty easy to play regardless of style, technique, and the original composer of the song. There's a reason why novice musicians learn Metallica when they first start out. If they want to play something a little heavier and faster, they learn Metallica. Metallica isn't exactly complicated or difficult to play. Normally I would also agree with not comparing musicians across genres and styles but it doesn't apply for Victor Wooten and Metallica. It would apply to comparing Victor Wooten and Alex Webster of Cannibal Corpse though. I would never compare those two musicians because it's comparing apples and oranges.

that makes no sense at all
aex is a very talented bassist, again not of victor wooten amazingness, but still good. just like cliff burton.
he isn't a virtuoso, but he is good at what he does, supporting the band and shining only when called upon. that is what the bass is truly about. and that is what mr. wooten said.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

No, that was Judas Priest. And yes, that is where they got the style from, the macho home thing. "Eat Me Alive" is also about that. It's also a wicked song.

I'm a long way away from wherever Talas was from, and I knew of them around 1983 or so. They were pretty popular among metal musicians. What's Mr. Big?

It was ManoWar as well. Pretty much it was the style of all the "bigger" bands in that time frame (approx.1983-1987). And yes Judas Priest was responsible for it. They made cool music though.

Mr Big was Sheehan's band with Paul Gilbert, and later Richie Kotzen, from 1989 to 2002. The fact that you haven't heard of them is testimony to their suckyness.

Just kidding, they actually sold quite a few albums. I called it a train wreck because it was one of those bands where all the players were extremely talented but never really came together to write any really good songs.

 

[peaveyuser]

why do people think because something is more difficult to play it is some how better?cliff is cliff and people like cliff because he was who he was.i like cliff.i don't like wooten i'm not saying he's bad.just not my scene,and yes i have heard him (bass player curiousity)i remember some "amazing grace" harmonic thing,again not my scene.people love wooten for who he is.their bass playing is only part of the equation. sometimes taste is more important than skill.i would rather hear an OK band do a great song than a great band do an OK song.i dont think cliff could sound like wooten even if he tried,but i dont think wooten could sound like cliff either.it not a contest no one is "better".some people even like trujilio.?i mean pete wentz has a bass?somebody out there must like him.what make one persons music more "serious" than someone else's.its all taste.i only like the Metallica records with cliff.but thats just my taste.have your own.
we as musicians sometimes forget how to enjoy music.

+1000

 

[Qvist]

why do people think because something is more difficult to play it is some how better?cliff is cliff and people like cliff because he was who he was.i like cliff.i don't like wooten i'm not saying he's bad.just not my scene,and yes i have heard him (bass player curiousity)i remember some "amazing grace" harmonic thing,again not my scene.people love wooten for who he is.their bass playing is only part of the equation. sometimes taste is more important than skill.i would rather hear an OK band do a great song than a great band do an OK song.i dont think cliff could sound like wooten even if he tried,but i dont think wooten could sound like cliff either.it not a contest no one is "better".some people even like trujilio.?i mean pete wentz has a bass?somebody out there must like him.what make one persons music more "serious" than someone else's.its all taste.i only like the Metallica records with cliff.but thats just my taste.have your own.
we as musicians sometimes forget how to enjoy music.

That is so freaking true, +a gazillion

Cliff did what a trash metal bassist should do in metallicas trash metal songs. Play ****ing fast and ****ing loud and simple. If Victor Wooten (hats off to him, he's an amazing player) tried to play trash metal with his own style, it would sound terrible! Sometimes you just don't have to play 9289214 notes everytime a guitarist just strikes a chord. I think alot of people takes stand against metal bassist just because of this fact.

Cliff had an awesome personality, everywhere you read about him being the nicest person ever, he meant alot to trash metal music, and I know he has, like Geddy, Larry Graham, Lemmy, and so on, proven that bass-"guitarists" can also rock the living poop out of everyone. That is why Cliff Burton is a god to me.

 

[MtManiac]

Just so you know. Monowar's first album came out in 1982. Although Talas released their first EP in 1978, they had no national exposure until they opened up for VanHalen in 1980. Even then they were considered "glam" metal and didn't get a record contract releasing the next two albums independently. They never really got over the hump of being a regional draw. As far as I could tell from what little research I did, they never even headlined a major tour.

Venom's first album was released in 1981.

Celtic Frost's debut was in 1984.

Slayer's first record was in 1983.

Kill 'Em All was released in 1983. Venom is the only band you mentioned that can be legitimately said to have been around for any appreciable time before Metallica came out. Adjust your recollections accordingly.

Good bands were made known via word of mouth and bootleg records and tapes. Metallica, Venom, Slayer and Celtic Frost were all known within my circle of friends way out here on the east coast of Canada, far away from where any of these bands played, before their first albums were released, and before Kill Em All was released. As a beginning bass player in 1982, my friends introduced me to Talas and Manowar for their bass players, not Metallica, who were more liked for their riffs and speed. Metallica was awesome, they just weren't known for their bass player. I got much more into Sabbath and Maiden for the bass playing than any other metal band of the time.

The OP was asking whether anyone thought Cliff was more than an OK metal bass player. IMHO, he wasn't. Metal history is full of talented musicians, and many bass players in that genre outshine Cliff. His bass playing is not the reason for their rise to success - his songwriting was well done, and it's not like he sucked or anything, just that he's become very overrated since he died. Doesn't mean I don't like what he did, I do. But let's not put him in the same class as Geezer Butler or Steve Harris and say he outshone them as a bass player, that's just crazy talk. They rode a wave - they were very fast and heavy (esp. compared to previously popular "metal" bands like the Scorpions, Quiet Riot, Ratt and Ozzy) so they stood out for that reason, and they didn't do songs about the devil, so that didn't hold them back like it did for other heavy bands like Venom or Mercyful Fate. They also were not into the stage drama of Manowar, which seemed pretty tiresome.

 

[Darkstrike]

Good bands were made known via word of mouth and bootleg records and tapes. Metallica, Venom, Slayer and Celtic Frost were all known within my circle of friends way out here on the east coast of Canada, far away from where any of these bands played, before their first albums were released, and before Kill Em All was released. As a beginning bass player in 1982, my friends introduced me to Talas and Manowar for their bass players, not Metallica, who were more liked for their riffs and speed. Metallica was awesome, they just weren't known for their bass player. I got much more into Sabbath and Maiden for the bass playing than any other metal band of the time.

The OP was asking whether anyone thought Cliff was more than an OK metal bass player. IMHO, he wasn't. Metal history is full of talented musicians, and many bass players in that genre outshine Cliff. His bass playing is not the reason for their rise to success - his songwriting was well done, and it's not like he sucked or anything, just that he's become very overrated since he died. Doesn't mean I don't like what he did, I do. But let's not put him in the same class as Geezer Butler or Steve Harris and say he outshone them as a bass player, that's just crazy talk. They rode a wave - they were very fast and heavy (esp. compared to previously popular "metal" bands like the Scorpions, Quiet Riot, Ratt and Ozzy) so they stood out for that reason, and they didn't do songs about the devil, so that didn't hold them back like it did for other heavy bands like Venom or Mercyful Fate. They also were not into the stage drama of Manowar, which seemed pretty tiresome.

+ More than numbers can say, read Metallica's book. Meallica were the biggest bootlegers and lp traders around even before the band started, and in their own words were lisnening to all these bands for a long time before they broke.

In fact the first time they heard Cliff play they thought he was playing guitar, and got a suprise to see it was a bass.

 

[Depth_Charge]

I think any bassist that has influence over what a drummer and guitarist release is worth gold in the bass world

 

[worldfamousandy]

really what Metallica songs does Trujillo groove on *_* and I just want to point out that maturity has nothing to do with someone's ability to play bass and in a metal band one could argue maturity is a negative in this genre

All of 'em. I saw Metallica a few years ago, and Trujillo was LOCKED IN with Lars. They were a true rhythm section, not just 2 guys playing the right notes.

Maturity has a lot to do with making music. Mature musicians have more experiences to draw from, larger vocabularies, and they can (usually) articulate their ideas better through their instruments. That's not to say that Cliff didn't have anything good to say, it's just that he definitely would have matured as a player, if he had been afforded the opportunity.

If he were alive today, he'd probably look back at "Pulling Teeth" as a piece that was appropriate for his level of expression at the time he originally played it. At 45 years old, I doubt he would have written it again, though.

Metallica's music has matured. "Kill 'Em All" was a GREAT album, but compare those songs to anything they have released in the last 10 years. The newer stuff isn't so deliberately fight-provoking, because they aren't as angry as they were 25 years ago.

 

[bearfoot]

Since someone evoked the VW bus somewhere above, it's also relevant to mention energy, man. Energy frequencies - a Wooten could maybe play circles around a Cliff, but could he get the energy right? Or a better example, like when one of those big tenors tries to sing pop. They can have the best voices and skills in the world and sound absolutely laughable outside their forte.
Hype is still just hype, no matter who it is we're talking about. But Cliff is also like McCartney in the sense of being the right musician, right band, right time. He deserves the respect he gets.

 

[alema]

Big fan of Metallica either, but not that much of Cliff, personally I don't like his tone, but I think is just a matter of taste.
I presume alot of guys like Cliff because the band he was in, he was the bass player from Metallica, that's a big deal, but as a fan
of the music his band plays, I'm not his fan individually.
The same thing as I'm not a great fan of Limp Bizkit, but I like very much Sam Rivers, I think both his tone and playing are something that suit my ears very much.
But usually, I think people tend to like players in band they like, that's the obvious choice.

 

[makaky]

Good bands were made known via word of mouth and bootleg records and tapes. Metallica, Venom, Slayer and Celtic Frost were all known within my circle of friends way out here on the east coast of Canada, far away from where any of these bands played, before their first albums were released, and before Kill Em All was released. As a beginning bass player in 1982, my friends introduced me to Talas and Manowar for their bass players, not Metallica, who were more liked for their riffs and speed. Metallica was awesome, they just weren't known for their bass player. I got much more into Sabbath and Maiden for the bass playing than any other metal band of the time.

The OP was asking whether anyone thought Cliff was more than an OK metal bass player. IMHO, he wasn't. Metal history is full of talented musicians, and many bass players in that genre outshine Cliff. His bass playing is not the reason for their rise to success - his songwriting was well done, and it's not like he sucked or anything, just that he's become very overrated since he died. Doesn't mean I don't like what he did, I do. But let's not put him in the same class as Geezer Butler or Steve Harris and say he outshone them as a bass player, that's just crazy talk. They rode a wave - they were very fast and heavy (esp. compared to previously popular "metal" bands like the Scorpions, Quiet Riot, Ratt and Ozzy) so they stood out for that reason, and they didn't do songs about the devil, so that didn't hold them back like it did for other heavy bands like Venom or Mercyful Fate. They also were not into the stage drama of Manowar, which seemed pretty tiresome.

+1

 

[MtManiac]

It was ManoWar as well. Pretty much it was the style of all the "bigger" bands in that time frame (approx.1983-1987). And yes Judas Priest was responsible for it. They made cool music though.

Mr Big was Sheehan's band with Paul Gilbert, and later Richie Kotzen, from 1989 to 2002. The fact that you haven't heard of them is testimony to their suckyness.

Just kidding, they actually sold quite a few albums. I called it a train wreck because it was one of those bands where all the players were extremely talented but never really came together to write any really good songs.

I was just kidding, I know of Mr. Big. Unfortunately.

 

[Snakeman1066]

Man first of all I can't beleive i actually read all five pages of this post....

Some younger players and Some Older players will just never get it...nor will players who just were not into the metal scene...

There were bands that came along at certain times in history and changed the face of music as we know it...

what Most of you seem to forget is that all bands have their influences some that most people have never heard of...

I have been a huge music geek most of my life and not just one genre i listen to everything...and i do mean everything...

In the late 60's the scene was changed by such bands as Blue Cheer, Sabbath, Purple etc....they built on R & B (Their influences) most people don't realize that the classic Sabbath sound and their de-tuned guitars were the result of Iommi losing his fingers in an accident...the de-tuning made it more comfortable and easier for him to play....

in the mid to late 70's the world was ruled by arena Rock and Disco...and along came the Ramones, Blondie, and the Talking Heads etc...the (new york scene) while D.C. had Fugazzi, Bad Brains, Minor Threat etc.... while detroit had The MC5, Iggy and the Stooges, and Alice Cooper......while some of these bands made it huge and others didn't they all had an impact on the industry as we know it...and they all had (their influences)

Metallica came along at the right place and time and made a huge impact with virtually NO radio coverage but yes even they had their influences by bands that IMHO were much better bands (Mercyful Fate, Diamond Head, Sabbath, Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, Blue Oyster Cult, The Misfits, Thin Lizzy, Discharge, Holocaust, The Killing Joke, Budgie, Bliztkrieg, The Anti-Nowhere Leauge, Sweet Savage, Motorhead, Queen...just to name a few...lol) most people have never heard of these bands and or have never or will never hear their music...but the obviously shaped the metallica sound...

Metallica came out of a scene that was dominated with Hair Metal bands, such as Motley Crue, Ratt, Poison, (L.A. Hair Crap metal) which is why they relocated to the Bay area, because the thrash scene was huge there... (Lets not forget that other well known metal bands came out of the same scene....Exodus for example...lol Kirk Hammett anyone?) When Metallica first started they were playing cover versions of most of the bands i mentioned above and everyone thought they were originals becuse they had never heard it either...

I agree that while Cliff is no Geezer, or Glover or Geddy Lee....he did have an impact on the music scene in his time and influenced a few players that came after him (lets not take that away from him) did you guys know the Les Claypool tried out for Metallica and they told him not just no but Hell No

I found these quotes recently....

"Black Sabbath is the only band whose records i actually wore out" - Mike Bordin Faith no More

"Sabbath is directly responsible for all metal, hardcore, thrash, and goth music. They are the premier goth band." Peter Steele Type o Negative

"listening to black Sabbath...they're like an anchor...their music...it's cool, simple, and direct, where would we be without them?" Bruce Dickinson Samson, Iron Maiden

"I remember going through some of my fathers things after he passed away and I found the first Black Sabbath album in his collection. I was really young and I didn't know what it was, but i liked the cover, so i put it on and I was totally freaked out. I've been a Black Sabbath fan ever since!" Max Cavalera Sepultura

" For a band to make it throught the 60's, 7o's, 80's, 90's and now the new Century and still be looked upon as relevant is a tremendous muiscal accomplishment." Rob Halford Judas Priest/Fight

Everything i learned about Rock n Roll Revolves around Black Sabbath!" Pepper Keenan C.O.C

Man i could go on for days about Sabbath IMHO the Sabbath sound has established itself as the reason most metal bands picked up an instrument...they will always be a new generation of kids hearing Paranoid, or N.I.B. or Iron Man or Supernaught for the first time and go on to form a band because of it....I know I did

Well there will be kids hearing...Whiplash, Seek and Destroy, Master of Puppets, Creeping Death, Enter Sandman etc...and will go on to form beands because of it...I know a bunch that did just ask...

Exmortem
Physical Attraction
Holocaust
Ungrateful
Sarcazm
Luciferion
Pagandom
Miscreant
Snotrocket
Flegma
Afflicted
Furious Trauma
In Flames

Seriously Metallica broke away from their crowd of peers and have made an impact on the music scene and thereforce Cliff has made an impact i have had fun playing some of their music over the years as i'm sure many more will

Cliff was a good metal bassist that stepped outside the box

all i'm going to say on the subject....

P.S. Talas was a great band by the way....New Yorkers know!!!....lol

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Good bands were made known via word of mouth and bootleg records and tapes. Metallica, Venom, Slayer and Celtic Frost were all known within my circle of friends way out here on the east coast of Canada, far away from where any of these bands played, before their first albums were released, and before Kill Em All was released. As a beginning bass player in 1982, my friends introduced me to Talas and Manowar for their bass players, not Metallica, who were more liked for their riffs and speed. Metallica was awesome, they just weren't known for their bass player. I got much more into Sabbath and Maiden for the bass playing than any other metal band of the time.

The OP was asking whether anyone thought Cliff was more than an OK metal bass player. IMHO, he wasn't. Metal history is full of talented musicians, and many bass players in that genre outshine Cliff. His bass playing is not the reason for their rise to success - his songwriting was well done, and it's not like he sucked or anything, just that he's become very overrated since he died. Doesn't mean I don't like what he did, I do. But let's not put him in the same class as Geezer Butler or Steve Harris and say he outshone them as a bass player, that's just crazy talk. They rode a wave - they were very fast and heavy (esp. compared to previously popular "metal" bands like the Scorpions, Quiet Riot, Ratt and Ozzy) so they stood out for that reason, and they didn't do songs about the devil, so that didn't hold them back like it did for other heavy bands like Venom or Mercyful Fate. They also were not into the stage drama of Manowar, which seemed pretty tiresome.

Don't get me wrong, I pretty much agree with what you're saying about Cliff's skills. I'm was just making the point that guys like you--who had a circle of friends that introduced you to these other bands and considered them as important, influential, etc...as Metallica because they were well known to your local peer group--doesn't mean that this view was held by the general metal bass playing population. In sociology terms this would be an example of standpoint theory--where your world view is shaped by where you make your observations from within it.

Its easy to look back at history, through a seasoned, dedicated bass player's eyes, and say we liked this band or that band because their bass player kicked ass. However, the truth is Metal has never been about the bass player. Thats why, when Hetfield talked about hearing Cliff play thinking he was a guitarist, its was meant as a complement not an insult.

There has never been a major movement by metal bassist to sound like Sheehan and none of the other bands you listed (with the exception of Iron Maiden) had a guy who made many people say to themselves "Man I want to work really hard until I can play like that guy." Thats just not what metal was about (at least for a long time it wasn't)

Now is this a universal truth, of course not. Lots of guys started playing bass because of one player or another. I'm just saying that many many more started playing because they listened to the music and said "I want to be a metal player," not "I want to be a metal bassist." These are the type of guys who fleshed out the metal scene and made it grow so much since the early 80's.

Cliff was definitely a "metal player." The fact that he was the first guy filling the position of bassist in what became the first truly heavy band in the modern (post Sabbath) sense of the term that also had transcending public appeal is what makes him influential and well liked. Doesn't matter if the band rode a wave to get there, or that they got there on their own merit. Does he deserve to be revered because of this. Maybe, maybe not. For a lot of people its enough.

 

[AlphaMale]

Man first of all I can't beleive i actually read all five pages of this post....

Some younger players and Some Older players will just never get it...nor will players who just were not into the metal scene...
.............
In Flames

Seriously Metallica broke away from their crowd of peers and have made an impact on the music scene and thereforce Cliff has made an impact i have had fun playing some of their music over the years as i'm sure many more will

Cliff was a good metal bassist that stepped outside the box

all i'm going to say on the subject....

P.S. Talas was a great band by the way....New Yorkers know!!!....lol

A lot of the facts, I've already heard. I'm pretty sure I saw them on wikipedia.


But how did Cliff step outside the box?

 

[SKATE RAT]

Don't get me wrong, I pretty much agree with what you're saying about Cliff's skills. I'm was just making the point that guys like you--who had a circle of friends that introduced you to these other bands and considered them as important, influential, etc...as Metallica because they were well known to your local peer group--doesn't mean that this view was held by the general metal bass playing population. In sociology terms this would be an example of standpoint theory--where your world view is shaped by where you make your observations from within it.

ain't ya ever heard of fanzines or tape trading.if you were into Metal,Thrash,Punk or hardcore in the 80's you were a weirdo and there weren't many other weirdos in your town,tape & record trading and fanzines were your life.your way out.and i grew up in NYC where stuff was easier to find.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

ain't ya ever heard of fanzines or tape trading.if you were into Metal,Thrash,Punk or hardcore in the 80's you were a weirdo and there weren't many other weirdos in your town,tape & record trading and fanzines were your life.your way out.and i grew up in NYC where stuff was easier to find.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with this? "and i grew up in NYC where stuff was easier to find." would seem to buttress my point, not disprove it.

Anyway, someone else is going to have to take up defending 'ol Cliff. Its been fun, but....

Peace.