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Cliff Burton Hype

#123
Darkstrike said:
None of the bands you have mentioned would I considir major bands or headliners, barring Pantera, and I aint a "post death fanboy"
Metal was on a downward spiral in the 90's. Black/Death/Viking whatever was underground. They are only getting really popular now, ask any metal muisican that was around in the 90's what bands were the best, barring other extreme metal fans, I know what answers you will get.
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BS, I really don't see how something being 'underground' has anything to do with Dime being overrated or Pantera 'saving' metal, like I said popularity never has been, and never will be a measuring stick for success musically. Otherwise we'd all think hip hop was the shiz, or whatever trend we're up to now rocks our world.

Just because it wasn't there, being shoved in everyones faces, or being played on radio stations doesn't equate to a musical death. Metal has always been a largely underground genre, in fact most mainstream metal was, and still is shunned from the metal community, and by that I mean anyone whose actually put effort into learning about it, a more elitest group I ahve not found. But thats good, metal DOES attract poseurs, the local noob and his CFH T shirt, thinking that dime 'saved' metal when there was MUCH better metal being made, not only for the era but for the next two or three is one of those poseurs.

Again, just because YOU weren't aware of European metal bands during the 90's doesn't mean they weren't more important than Pantera. Nor does it mean you or all pantera fans are exclusively poseurs.
 
#125
james127 said:
well them tell me alphamale in your opinion who do you think is a better bass player than cliff?
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Wow.
It's just like saying name any bassist off the top of your head.

Hahaaha joking.

let see:
Stefan Fimmers (Necrophagist)
Jonas Hellborg
Stuart Zender
Steve Harris
Lemmy Kilmeister
Les Claypool
Job For a Cowboy's bassist is pretty good.
Megadeth's Bassist is okay, David Eleffson
There are a lot of bassists I like better. I don't think cliff is a bad bassist though.
 
#126
theNoseBleedKid said:
Pantera kept metal alive? COME ON, any person who knows ANYTHING couldn't make such a blanketly ******** and superficial statement.

What exactly did Pantera keep alive? Viking metal and Black metal at the beginning and mid 90's was boojming, Bathory and Quothorn's acts were massive and the following amazing, progressive metal such as Pain of salvation and DT was gaining popularity, Opeth started, Alchemist started, hell even tool was just as popular as Pantera (if your going to call them metal), I'm sick of people treating Pantera like demi gods.

The band was nothing special, just because they gained popularity does not equate to genius, musical integrity or some kind of post death fanboyism that follows the word 'dime' everytime its posted.:rollno::rollno:

Pantera were fine, they do not deserve their credit and there were much more influential, important and bands of higher quality. Certainly they didn't 'save' metal from whatever imagined fate your implying.

What did Pantera's legacy leave behind? Trivium, KsE. What did Bathory's? Gorgoroth, Opeth, Viking metal as a genre and finntroll.

Check and mate.
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Viking and black metal? That stuff is still considered underground outside of Europe. Hardly any good black metal bands tour down here, with the exception of Celtic Frost who were here a few months back, but then we're getting into the whole "Celtic Frost aren't black metal, they just invented it" argument which is utter BS, but not as BS as your claims about Pantera.

Critics were always saying that metal was dead and that nobody wants heavy music (despite the uprising of Grunge). Pantera were one of the few bands to keep metal going strong. It's true that gaining popularity in the music scene doesn't equate to genius, but Pantera never "just got popular". They had been shot down by 28 major record labels but finally got a deal. They had four albums released before they were even recognized. When Cowboys From Hell was released as their 5th studio album they finally got acclaim from critics, and even then it wasn't good. Critics said that most of the songs were pretty average but there were a few good ones.

A Vulgar Display of Power and Far Beyond Driven are the albums that made Pantera famous. Don't know if you've ever thought about it, but that means Pantera only got mainstream-popular with their 6th and 7th albums. By their next album (The Great Southern Trendkill) they were already starting to break up, Anselmo recorded vocals in New Orleans while the rest of the band recorded the tracks in a completely different city and studio. By their 9th album (Official Live) Cowboys From Hell and the other albums were only just starting to go platinum. It took 7 years for their first publicly recognized album to go platinum.

You think they had it easy? Hell no. You're damn right they saved metal, they could have given up and thrown in the towel, but they never did. In the era that grunge was getting popular world-wide, Pantera rose up and became massively popular and gave metal the kick it needed. Sure you can say there were other massively popular metal bands out (Slayer, Metallica) but these bands were OLD. They had been playing massive concerts in the 80's and were already acclaimed. The metal world needed something new and amazing to give it a boost and gain popularity again, and Pantera were the ones to do it.

If you think that Pantera don't deserve the respect they get you obviously have no idea what they did for the metal scene. :rollno:
 
#127
theNoseBleedKid said:
BS, I really don't see how something being 'underground' has anything to do with Dime being overrated or Pantera 'saving' metal, like I said popularity never has been, and never will be a measuring stick for success musically. Otherwise we'd all think hip hop was the shiz, or whatever trend we're up to now rocks our world.
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Sorry but many people do think that hip hop is the shiz, that obviously explains why it's on every music channel. It's POPULAR. :eek: Humans know what they do and don't like, and though there are people out there stupid enough to make themselves like whatever is popular, those people aren't enough to support a whole genre and help it remain in the spotlight.

Just because it wasn't there, being shoved in everyones faces, or being played on radio stations doesn't equate to a musical death. Metal has always been a largely underground genre
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Metal is huge in Europe, and getting bigger and bigger in the USA. Look at concerts like Ozzfest and Wakken. Metal is hardly underground. Like you said, just because it's not being shoved in your face doesn't mean it's not popular.

...in fact most mainstream metal was, and still is shunned from the metal community, and by that I mean anyone whose actually put effort into learning about it, a more elitest group I ahve not found. But thats good, metal DOES attract poseurs, the local noob and his CFH T shirt, thinking that dime 'saved' metal when there was MUCH better metal being made, not only for the era but for the next two or three is one of those poseurs.
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I listen to a lot of European metal, I'm a huge power metal fan and I listen to a lot of folk metal. I have never seen any metalhead label me a poser because I listen to Pantera and wear a Pantera shirt. I get the metal horn salute by all sorts of metalheads, people wearing Edguy shirts, Finntroll shirts, Bathory shirts, Candlemass shirts, Crowbar shirts... does this make us all posers because we know and like Pantera? :rollno:

Again, just because YOU weren't aware of European metal bands during the 90's doesn't mean they weren't more important than Pantera. Nor does it mean you or all pantera fans are exclusively poseurs.
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Sorry man but underground music can't support a genre. If it weren't for popular bands like Maiden and Pantera I would never have gotten into metal. There are some awesome bands out there that are underground, but you need stepping stones to get to these bands. A person who has never listened to metal before isn't going to find "Mors Principium Est" first when they are trying to get into metal. Hence why bands that are virtually unknown will never be able to support a genre. How would a grunge supporter find these European bands that are "underground" without a stepping stone band like Pantera to get them into metal in the first place?
 
#128
ROON- Firstly thanks for the effort in replying.

Lets adress your points, quoting two posts would have sucked so I'm just going to try my best.

Firstly, Celtic frost is fine, I'd say (from what Ive heard) its more symphonic or power metal, but thats hardly an extensive listen.

Seoncdly, no one ever good tours here, there are great local acts, but internationally there are very few bands that I'd like to see that ever come here.

I've NEVER heard (at least not in the past 5 years) Black metal considered underground, you've kind of condtradicted yourself (unintentionally I assume) by proposiong Wakken as a benchmark for metals popularity, but ignoring that it's often headlined by 'underground' bands such as emperor or gorgoroth or finntroll.

Please stop saying I do not understand the historical relevance of the early 90's, I do. I've never seen, heard or read any convincing evidence or argument to support Pantera saving or revolutionising metal. To me it seems those that would have listened would still have found more obscure records Bathory/burzum sold out shows in the US, so obviously it wasn't impossible to find their stuff when they gained a following, even without the net). Pantera just provided a platform for more people to access metal in America, and prehaps other western culture (I for one have never heard ANY palyed on Aussie radio till Dime died!). Again theres nothing WRONG with this, but its hardly a saving, a catchy band that changed from glam to having more groove, got airplay cause it was catchy - thats it.

Prehaps I should also clarify, people don't seem to respect Pantera, I feel many, led by exploitations of Dime's obscure death, utilise the scene props of pantera, whcih again is fine, but I'm calling a spade a spade. I was trying not to deviate into the old 80's bands as I think their archaic style wasn't capturing the attention it once did, most notably the trash 4, with constant lineup changes. Thats why I refer to the burgeoning European scene at that time, which I think did inspire and create on a new and innovative level.

I think we see eye to eye on the hip hop thing, I view metal as (for the most part) an exclusive genre that does take dedication, time, money and genuine interest to be involved and knowledgable in. It's almost offensive when you see emo's wearing Pantera shirts (or KsE, or trivium) claiming they are the total metal gods.

I still view metal as underground, its tiered (spelling?). There obviously bands like IM, pantera or black sabbath that are kitchen names. But, like I mentioned earlier, any real understanding takes dedication which many ignore, or aren't aware of. Your points about underground support are true, yet also untrue. Obviously pathways into a genre are important, but with the net around they CAN be ignored, or not even mentioned. A quick search of google and your in a world that many metal fans wouldn't know about. Some genre's, such as stoner, grindcore or even chamber music, have only one or two minor ins, I've found they are genre's that you stumble accross, so I guess its possible to work both ways.
 
#130
theNoseBleedKid said:
BS, I really don't see how something being 'underground' has anything to do with Dime being overrated or Pantera 'saving' metal, like I said popularity never has been, and never will be a measuring stick for success musically. Otherwise we'd all think hip hop was the shiz, or whatever trend we're up to now rocks our world.

Just because it wasn't there, being shoved in everyones faces, or being played on radio stations doesn't equate to a musical death. Metal has always been a largely underground genre, in fact most mainstream metal was, and still is shunned from the metal community, and by that I mean anyone whose actually put effort into learning about it, a more elitest group I ahve not found. But thats good, metal DOES attract poseurs, the local noob and his CFH T shirt, thinking that dime 'saved' metal when there was MUCH better metal being made, not only for the era but for the next two or three is one of those poseurs.

Again, just because YOU weren't aware of European metal bands during the 90's doesn't mean they weren't more important than Pantera. Nor does it mean you or all pantera fans are exclusively poseurs.
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I never said it did, just that what you considider "booming" wssnt, not til the new milennium, thing dont boom in the underground so much.

Yes I was aware of European metal in the 90's btw.

And I never said that Pantera "saved metal" only that they were headliners, during a time when most metal wasnt popular.
 
#131
ROON said:
Sorry man but underground music can't support a genre. If it weren't for popular bands like Maiden and Pantera I would never have gotten into metal. There are some awesome bands out there that are underground, but you need stepping stones to get to these bands. A person who has never listened to metal before isn't going to find "Mors Principium Est" first when they are trying to get into metal. Hence why bands that are virtually unknown will never be able to support a genre. How would a grunge supporter find these European bands that are "underground" without a stepping stone band like Pantera to get them into metal in the first place?
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where do you think new genre's come from.?and not just metal .all music,Mongolian Surf Polka! if such a thing exists,it will come from the underground.even Blues was underground once.
 
#132
SKATE RAT said:
where do you think new genre's come from.?and not just metal .all music,Mongolian Surf Polka! if such a thing exists,it will come from the underground.even Blues was underground once.
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Yup, and I aint goona just start listening to Mongolian Surf Polka out of nowhere, first I would be listening regular(???) Mongolian music and take it from there. E.g. most go from the blues into jazz, into jazz fusion etc. I dont just someday decide to listen to underground jazz/whatever mix, without going through the big names.
 
#133
Pantera was the last great mainstream metal band, but they didn't say anything. They helped it last. And as far as Dimebag's death thing. Dimebag has his own signature bass.... I don't even know what to say about that. With all this talk about extreme metal no one has brought up Morbid Angel, Carcass, or At the Gates, Death or Possessed. But maybe you guys are more BM fans than DM fans. With an exception of At the Gates, all of these bands formed around the same time as Metallica but there was a lot of time before they put out albums.
 
#140
musicelectronix said:
LOL. When I first saw it, I thought "hey look! Dean made a bass out of Dime's guitar's body. When will Dean stop exploiting poor guy"
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Yeah, all well and good to make the axe, but to add his name about 80 times an ad is overkill. Id prefer if they advertised on the merits of the instrument.

On the otherside those basses are pretty bare bones. No colour options or nothing.
 

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