Cliff Burton pic

[Korladis]

His tone on RTL is more similar to MoP than Kill 'em All. Is there any documentation establishing which bass he used on Ride?

I think there is, somewhere. Can't remember, though. The timing just isn't right for the Arias, though. RTL was recorded from February to March 1984, and I don't think he had the Arias until after that. Most pics I can find of them from early 1984 have the Rickenbacker.

Besides which, by plugging a Rickenbacker into a D-180 amplifier, the RTL bass tone is extremely easy to get. It's practically that rig's default tone. Honestly I think the difference in amps between KEA and the later two albums makes more of a difference in sound than the basses. The MoP sound takes a bit of low boosting to get with a Rickenbacker, since I think the Aria was fatter sounding, but it's not that big an adjustment.

 

[Korladis]

They're not, they're HB-1s. Toasters have slots on top (like a toaster).
I think he means that the jazz pickup at the bridge is a "neck" pickup.

Can't confirm that it is, but usually the neck pickup is smaller which would make it easier to fit under the Rick assembly.

Ah, yeah. Only the pickup right near the neck is usually called a "neck pickup" on Rickenbackers. The other is the bridge pickup.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

Toasters are single coil pickups.

Oh, now I see why they call them toasters:

The humbucker housing is the same, but w/o the separator down the middle. The opposite of what you'd think. I would think the humbucker would be the one with a split down the middle, kind of like Peavey's T-40 pickups.

 

[callofcthulhu]

The humbucker housing is the same, but w/o the separator down the middle.

They're not, actually. I was considering rehousing my HB-1 in a toaster shell (purely for cosmetic purposes) but found out that it's impossible due to the difference in dimensions.

Ah, yeah. Only the pickup right near the neck is usually called a "neck pickup" on Rickenbackers. The other is the bridge pickup.

Right, he's got a "neck" pickup at the bridge pickup location.

 

[Korladis]

They're not, actually. I was considering rehousing my HB-1 in a toaster shell (purely for cosmetic purposes) but found out that it's impossible due to the difference in dimensions.

Right, he's got a "neck" pickup at the bridge pickup location.

Isn't it still a bridge pickup then?

 

[Korladis]

Oh, now I see why they call them toasters:

The humbucker housing is the same, but w/o the separator down the middle. The opposite of what you'd think. I would think the humbucker would be the one with a split down the middle, kind of like Peavey's T-40 pickups.

The funny thing is that in construction, the HB1 is a lot more like the T-40 pickup, as it's a blade pickup. In contrast, the toaster actually has six individual magnets and pole pieces.

 

[cheechi]

So on Cliff's Rick, why stack the neck pu's like that and/or why choose those pu's to stack?

Stack the neck pu's like that? There's only one neck pickup. Not sure what you mean.

I am used to seeing Rics with the single coil at the neck. I misspoke. What I meant was;

With a Gibson EB-0 pickup in the neck and a Jazz pickup at the bridge, Cliff's Rickenbacker was certainly unique.

iirc he the Rickenbacker was the first bass he owned, he got it from his parents when he started playing bass (after his brother died)

The Gibson and Jazz bass pickups were added while recording Kill 'em all, the original electronics/pickups were too noisy to record with.
Apparently there was also a guitar pickup under the bridge...

A dimarzio strat pickup, if memory serves.

The EB-0 stacked on the DiMarzio strat pu. Were those particular pu's chosen for any purpose that we can tell years later? I know 'tone magic' might be the answer but if anyone has a real answer, that was my question.

 

[Korladis]

I am used to seeing Rics with the single coil at the neck. I misspoke. What I meant was;







The EB-0 stacked on the DiMarzio strat pu. Were those particular pu's chosen for any purpose that we can tell years later? I know 'tone magic' might be the answer but if anyone has a real answer, that was my question.

But the EB-0 pickup was at the neck...

The Dimarzio strat pickup was in the bridge, where the mute assembly normally is.

 

[callofcthulhu]

Isn't it still a bridge pickup then?

That's a pretty philosophical question, man. A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet - but is the smell of a pickup in it's mechanics or in it's location? Are we defined by our intentions or by our deeds?

The pickup was taken from the neck position on a jazz bass and put into the bridge position on a Rickenbacker. So, is it a neck pickup, or has it transubstantiated, transcended, metamorphosed to a bridge pickup? A question for the ages indeed...

 

[callofcthulhu]

The EB-0 stacked on the DiMarzio strat pu. Were those particular pu's chosen for any purpose that we can tell years later? I know 'tone magic' might be the answer but if anyone has a real answer, that was my question.

I've got a Dimarzio Hot Rails in the mute cavity of my Rick - the tech I took it to chose that one because he said it was the highest output pickup of that size I'd be able to find unless I had something custom wound. Because there's so little string movement that close to the bridge, you need something super sensitive for it to be of any use.

 

[Korladis]

That's a pretty philosophical question, man. A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet - but is the smell of a pickup in it's mechanics or in it's location? Are we defined by our intentions or by our deeds?

The pickup was taken from the neck position on a jazz bass and put into the bridge position on a Rickenbacker. So, is it a neck pickup, or has it transubstantiated, transcended, metamorphosed to a bridge pickup? A question for the ages indeed...

I think the main difference between the neck and bridge pickups of jazz basses is the spacing of the pole pieces. Because jazz necks taper so much, the spacing at the neck position is considerably narrower than at the bridge position. That's probably why, since a Rickenbacker has relatively narrow string spacing, but little taper, so the pole pieces of the neck jazz pickup probably aligned better with the strings.

I've got a Dimarzio Hot Rails in the mute cavity of my Rick - the tech I took it to chose that one because he said it was the highest output pickup of that size I'd be able to find unless I had something custom wound. Because there's so little string movement that close to the bridge, you need something super sensitive for it to be of any use.

Science.

 

[Snowglo]

Not sure if it was mentioned but Paul D'Amour from Tool used a Rickenbacker. Rics are very good for metal. Especially if you run them in stereo.

Paul still uses a Rick in his new band Lessor Key. A 4001CS if I'm not mistaken. Combined with a Darkglass B7k = killer tone.

 

[PortlandBass77]

Heh, probably. Especially as he was a pretty big stoner, apparently.


It's really more because of type of pickup and pickup location (note that Rickenbacker's pickups are not located really very close to the locations of most other basses) that give them that sound. If you put a couple '51 P-bass pickups (the single coil ones) in the Rickenbacker pickup locations, it would probably sound similar.


Toasters aren't humbucking.


Hardcore grew out of punk, originally, actually.


Some may consider Zeppelin the first metal band. The consensus of the metal scene, though, seems to be that Black Sabbath was. And in terms of influence over the gene, I think Black Sabbath is definitely at least the more influential band on metal today.


Eh, "screaming" isn't really part of all metal. Lots of heavy metal doesn't include much use of the tri-tone, either.

As with any other genre, it's sort of a loose consensus on what it is, and is really easy with obvious examples to say "that's a metal band," but harder with music that's more ambiguous as to where it fits in.


It's in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, IIRC


And confirmed.


Stack the neck pu's like that? There's only one neck pickup. Not sure what you mean.


I know you're joking around, but the year would be like 1970.

I know, I can't think of another way to refer to the 'we're more metal than you, usually death metal people'

 

[Max Blasto]

a.) You're right, they are more of a classic rock back, but I thought I'd throw them a bone.
b.) They do, but when asked the question "Is Manowat metal enough for you" then answer is an emphatic no. The are a bad joke in loin cloths that went on too long. If you have to tell everyone how metal you are by saying "I'm so metal" in every song, rather than writing about metal stuff, you aren't metal.

"Writing about metal stuff"

I'm going to be busting up for the rest of the week!

Thanks for that.

 

[Max Blasto]

I know you're joking around, but the year would be like 1970.

Which is the year that In Rock came out.
And it was recorded with a Rickenbacker 4001.

So, the beginning of metal.

But then, "Communication Breakdown" was pretty heavy and it was recorded in 1968.
Of course JP Jones used a Jazz bass for that, so I'm sure some metal guys are suspicious.
And the song really wasn't about metal stuff, was it? But it was pretty heavy.

Now, Helter Skelter was recorded in 1968. And Macca used a Rick. And the Fall of the Roman Empire could be considered "metal stuff" right? So there you have it.

 

[Korladis]

I know, I can't think of another way to refer to the 'we're more metal than you, usually death metal people'

Almost invariably.

Which is the year that In Rock came out.
And it was recorded with a Rickenbacker 4001.

So, the beginning of metal.

But then, "Communication Breakdown" was pretty heavy and it was recorded in 1968.
Of course JP Jones used a Jazz bass for that, so I'm sure some metal guys are suspicious.
And the song really wasn't about metal stuff, was it? But it was pretty heavy.

Now, Helter Skelter was recorded in 1968. And Macca used a Rick. And the Fall of the Roman Empire could be considered "metal stuff" right? So there you have it.

Could be... but it isn't.

For me it's not a value judgment... they are all great bands. The consensus within the metal scene seems to be that Black Sabbath started it, though. And given their influence on the genre, I don't think it can really be credibly disputed.

As for using a Jazz bass... I'm not sure why you think metal fans would be suspicious? Geezer used a P-bass for much of his career, and Steve Harris has used one for nearly all of it. Jason Newsted uses what are essentially suped up jazz basses.

I just got back from seeing a show... the band Fister. Bassist was using an old Ibanez jazz bass copy.

I kinda suspect that you're trolling, though.

 

[Max Blasto]

Almost invariably.


Could be... but it isn't.

For me it's not a value judgment... they are all great bands. The consensus within the metal scene seems to be that Black Sabbath started it, though. And given their influence on the genre, I don't think it can really be credibly disputed.

As for using a Jazz bass... I'm not sure why you think metal fans would be suspicious? Geezer used a P-bass for much of his career, and Steve Harris has used one for nearly all of it. Jason Newsted uses what are essentially suped up jazz basses.

I just got back from seeing a show... the band Fister. Bassist was using an old Ibanez jazz bass copy.

I kinda suspect that you're trolling, though.

Naw, not trollin'. Just kiddin'.

You called it the first time, I'm joking. Black Sabbath's debut album came out in 1970 . So the joke lies in the obvious omission of the seminal work that influenced the creation of an entire genre.

But in all honesty, I really don't think that Black Sabbath was the only heavy band at the time. Purple's work on In Rock was just as heavy, tho Machine Head gets more love critically. Zep doesn't get credit for modern metal, but I distinctly remember LZII being referred to as metal back in the 70s. And Communication Breakdown is every bit as heavy as Paranoid. At the time, it was all heavy duty stuff. Now, of course, Zep was quite a bit more diverse than Sabbath, and Purple had keyboards which became unmetal later on, at least in the US. But the only reason that bands that were called heavy metal in the 70s (Steppenwolf !) are not called that now is that the genre changed (as it should) and fans have moved the goalpost.

What modern metal fans consider to be "metal" music is a shorter spectrum of what I consider "metal" music. The modern metal fan has become extremely conservative in their tastes and opinions of the genre (something Bruce Dickenson addressed at least 15 or 20 years ago). Now, that's ok with me, but I see the genre as part of a wider spectrum.

And, ob topic, I believe that so did Cliffy B. His role in the genre was pivotal, but his approach was of the envelop pushing approach of his predecessors. Metallica was and is a modern metal band, but they didn't get that way out of the blue, they came from the heavy bands that they listened to. When my brother gave me the first Iron Maiden album and said "stick this in your playa, playa", I loved it. And it sounded like what might've happened had Black Sabbath and Thin Lizzy jammed together after drinking way too much coffee.

Modern music is released in a time period, and comparing Slayer to Helter Skelter album ignores the fact that they didn't happen at the same time and the amount of innovation between events. But they are part of the same continuum, because the approach was the same: Big, loud, aggressive, in your face.

 

[karl_em_all]

I probably wouldn't like them then, I am not a fan of the 'hardcore' metal.....

Don't underestimate the completely unintentional comedic value of this band (Manowar). Pure gold.

Also, when it comes to the creation of heavy metal, there were bands in the late 60's getting their feet wet, occasionally dabbling with a heavier sound on some songs. Black Sabbath dove into that pool head first. They started/created what is known as heavy metal. *drops mic. walks away*

 

[Sixgunn]

Anyway, personally I have always found Rickenbackers to be the best basses for use in metal. At least for me. Mostly because it's easy to get a really aggressive sound out of them.

The sound Cliff got with his Aria on Master was a bit thicker, but still pretty close the sound I go for with my Rickenbacker, actually.

I disagree about pickup placement. Like I said, I ruined a Rick by putting a P-bass pickup in the exact same neck position as the original. Didn't sound like a Rick at all anymore. Rick pickups are unique. I believe they're single coil and also the bridge pickup has a bigger magnet than the neck one. At least my old 4001s did.

 

[JimmyThunder]

there is nothing less artistic then spending your time and energy attempting to rigidly classify other artists' art