Chef
In Memoriam
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I should have some mp3 from the last concert in a couples of days.
I will send you them !
svtb15
Inactive
- Mar 22, 2004
- 13,004
- 4,741
- Disclosures
- I play it all. Whatever works for the gig. Q+
+1
I never liked Cut / Boost treble controls on any bass...
Nothing is as handy and intuitive as a VTC on the fly.
I rarely ever use the Treb Boost.. I do at times with P5 soloed at times,,, but rarely..
Honestly, 90% of the time i use my NYC PJ5 in passive mode.. It punches through real nice that way
I never liked Cut / Boost treble controls on any bass...
Nothing is as handy and intuitive as a VTC on the fly.
I rarely ever use the Treb Boost.. I do at times with P5 soloed at times,,, but rarely..
Honestly, 90% of the time i use my NYC PJ5 in passive mode.. It punches through real nice that way
Hawkeye
Canuck Amateur
For me a single Master Vol is best. I'm not a fan of dual volume or stacked volume controls. However I know it all has to do with the availability of cost effective component matchings and a stacked pan / VTC may not be the most common option available (even though it may make perfect sense to me).
Of course if all this takes too long I may just have to relinquish the Fender Jazz V and ante up for a Metro Standard MS5 in Cherryburst that I've kind of had on my mind for a while now. Seems to me like that would contrast and compliment my RV5PJ nicely.
Is it possible to find out what frequencies are being cut
when engaging the VTC? I think it's important to know
what range of high end you're taking out. We know what
frequencies the bass and treble boosts are adding.
when engaging the VTC? I think it's important to know
what range of high end you're taking out. We know what
frequencies the bass and treble boosts are adding.
That's a much more complex question than you think. It's not nearly as straightforward as an active treble cut control. The "problem" here is, as a passive control, it affects both highs and also mids, and it's specific behavior depends on pickup type and capacitor value, which can vary a lot.
There are basically three capacitors that work.. .02uf, .05uf and .1uf. I find .02 and .05 work well for guitars and .05 and .1 work well for bass. You have to experiment and decide what you like. Every pickup will work differently with each capacitor.
We use .05 except for our soapbars, which work better with the .1 cap.
Roger
My warwick streamer stage I needs a vtc. But i like the 80hz ish bass control on the stock pre with that bass so not sure a sadowsky pre is the right call hmm ...
OK, Roger and Vic, thanx for responding, but
can you answer this question then?
What exactly is being cut when you turn the VTC
counter-clockwise? I'm not a luthier technician, just
a guy who plays bass, so I don't understand pot and
capacitor numbers and values. Can you put it in
"laymans terms"? Are you saying that there really isn't
some sort of frequency to gain ratio or algorithm?
(Or is it a company secret recipe?)
can you answer this question then?
What exactly is being cut when you turn the VTC
counter-clockwise? I'm not a luthier technician, just
a guy who plays bass, so I don't understand pot and
capacitor numbers and values. Can you put it in
"laymans terms"? Are you saying that there really isn't
some sort of frequency to gain ratio or algorithm?
(Or is it a company secret recipe?)
To follow up on Vic's explanation: when you begin turning the VTC counter-clockwise you first notice a rolloff in high frequencies, then as you go farther ccw you notice a rolloff in high mids and then mid-mids.
There's no secret, it's just difficult to quantify because as Roger explained the behavior of the VTC will change somewhat depending on the pickups used, and of course the capacitor used. Roger selects the capacitor that works best with each pickup type.
I don't think that more detail is necessary. The VTC is a passive tone control, and its function is similar enough to the tone control found on passive basses. It changes your tone from bright to mellow, and all shades in between.
To follow up on Vic's explanation: when you begin rolling off the VTC you first notice a rolloff in high frequencies, then as you go farther counter-clockwise you notice a rolloff in high mids and then mid-mids.
There's no secret, it's just difficult to quantify because as Roger explained the behavior of the VTC will change somewhat depending on the pickups used, and of course the capacitor used. Roger selects the capacitor that works best with each pickup type.
I don't think that more detail is necessary. The VTC is a passive tone control, and its function is similar enough to the tone control found on passive basses. It changes your tone from bright to mellow, and all shades in between.
+1 The other way you can think about this circuit (even though it is not exactly the same thing) is as a variable low pass filter. In other words, turning the knob moves the frequency cut-off point, with a relatively constant cut level. Just like the VLE on the Markbass amps, it will slowly and gradually cut lower and lower frequencies as you turn it up.
Once the user gets the idea of 'relatively constant cut of lower and lower frequencies', what you hear ends up making sense.
Again, per your point, the VTC is just a very nice execution of the passive tone controls that have been on electric basses since the beginning.
Per my above post, the more you turn it, all of the frequencies above a gradually lower frequency start point get cut out. So, rolling it back around 20% (as an example) will just remove the very upper treble range of a tweeter, making your rig sound a bit more paper cone (GK includes a 'papercone' switch on their full size amps that does a similar thing... cuts freq's about 5K or so, which takes the edge/sizzle off the response of a cab with a tweeter). The Markbass VLE does the same thing.
So, with the VTC all the way up, nothing is cut. As you turn it 'down', you remove everything above 10K, then 8K, then 5K, then 1K, etc., etc., all the way down to the mid midrange when cranked (giving you a sort of 'bass only' dub response at its most extreme level).
If you are playing out of a one way cab without a tweeter or mid driver, you will notice virtually no difference in tone through the first 30% of so of the VTC pot travel, since the cab is not reproducing those frequencies anyway. There is nothing to cut way up there with a vintage cab.
Now, how is that different from the active treble cut on most amps?. While the VTC provides a relatively constant level of cut applied to all frequencies above a continually lower and lower frequency start point, an active cut and boost shelving treble control on an amp cuts (or boosts) at a higher and higher level of everything above a FIXED frequency (usually somewhere above 4K).
So, get the 'frequency' versus 'level' thing in your head, and you will have it
HOWEVER... and I am actually doing some digging to see if there are any quantifying comments that we can make on this... one thing I'm trying to figure out is it seems like mids almost get emphasized or even boosted somehow... and not necessarily just due to the absence of highs... at least it doesn't seem like simple perception anyway. Seems more like the whole RCL circuit thing where it' not just a "linear" dropping off of the highs at a variable frequency.
Nothing yet, but even if I don't find anything, the point is, not only do highs get dropped, but at least to me, it seems like mids also get emphasized some.
Not sure there. A passive tone control cannot technically boost anything as far as I know. I've never experienced this. Just a gradual reduction in lower and lower frequencies.
However, as you point out, different pickups and different capacitance settings, etc. can most likely result in some strange interactions.
This will make the OP's head hurt though. I think if most just understand the idea of 'relatively constant level cut applied to everything above a lower and lower frequency start point', it will be all the info the layman needs to basically understand what the thing is doing!
I hear same as vic, theres an effect on lows and mids as well, im sure one of the EEs out there could produce a response plot. It makes the lows "puffy" especially with certain pickups.
But then again i think the brain lets highs mask what is really going on in lows and mids -- thats why a good crossover and horn makes a muddy cab sound tighter.
But then again i think the brain lets highs mask what is really going on in lows and mids -- thats why a good crossover and horn makes a muddy cab sound tighter.
+1 Think about playing a bass through only a subwoofer (i.e., nothing above 100hz or so). It sounds muddy and flubby. Add the midrange and above, and all of a sudden, it is clean and full and fat.
The FedEx delivery person (a super nice girl who was just a touch taller than the box she was delivering ) showed up a few minutes ago. I excitedly exclaimed, "My bass!" and felt a brief surge of panic when she responded with, "and it's a good day to stay inside and play bass [the weather] - but there's some bad news". Bad news? My eyes immediately scanned the pristine looking box looking for signs of a puncture. "There's some tax to pay". Those words have never sounded so good.
) showed up a few minutes ago. I excitedly exclaimed, "My bass!" and felt a brief surge of panic when she responded with, "and it's a good day to stay inside and play bass [the weather] - but there's some bad news". Bad news? My eyes immediately scanned the pristine looking box looking for signs of a puncture. "There's some tax to pay". Those words have never sounded so good.
Yeah, and Ken's right of course... it can't be a gain at least the same as an active control, so maybe it's just an interesting curve with a mid emphasis based on the "reactive" nature of the RCL circuit with a varying R, and varied L ratings, and if you factor in cords/lengths/amps/etc, even R can vary more (tho maybe insignificantly) and C can vary too.
Anyway, at least on a J bass, and maybe across the board, I'd prefer a VTC/Bass stack vs a Treble/Bass stack, but I definitely understand the difficulties with serving a nitch market with a custom part that carries a hefty minimum purchase requirement. Don't think I'd do it.
Chef
In Memoriam
Easy enough to drill a hole in the side of your non-Sadowsky, and install a football plate output jack.
Then: no worries. 4 hole top plate.
Then: no worries. 4 hole top plate.
