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Club Sadowsky!!!

#49,121
WorktheWood said:
Sadowsky switched out to a stacked hum cancelling pickup in Sept 2018. This was a change from a split style which, IMHO, is far inferior to the stacked design...Plus the split coil in my experience causes a mid scoop within each pickup. The new stacked pickups Sadowsky uses sound fantastic.
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I strongly disagree with this... at least the "far inferior" part...

At least IME/IMHO...
  • The split coil is inherently closer to a true single coil because that's exactly what's under the strings... basically two single coil pickups... just in the same location.
  • The split coil is ONLY noisier in the asymmetrical config, such as the one you cite. Otherwise, there should be no appreciable difference in noise suppression, and there are plenty of 4 banger players out there (tho I admit I'm mostly a 5'er).
  • The voicing depends entirely on the build, not the split coil design itself. There are lots of examples of this in all pickup types within a similar design, just different magnets, wire, wind, etc.
I will agree with one thing tho, the new stacked HC does sound fantastic. I have a set and love them.
 
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#49,122
I disagree that a split coil is closer to a typical single coil jazz pickup. In a true single coil you have wire wrapped fully around 10 pole pieces (5 string) sitting under the string. In a stacked design, you have the same situation. The only change is that underneath the sensing coil you have the lower half of the poles wrapped in exactly the same number of winds to cancel hum but not pick up any actual sound. This style is much closer to a true single coil than a split coil. And as I said, a much better design for hum cancelling than a split coil on a 5 string.

Vic said:
I strongly disagree with this... at least the "far inferior" part...

At least IME/IMHO...
  • The split coil is inherently closer to a true single coil because that's exactly what's under the strings... basically two single coil pickups... just in the same location.
  • The split coil is ONLY noisier in the asymmetrical config, such as the one you cite. Otherwise, there should be no appreciable difference in noise suppression, and there are plenty of 4 banger players out there (tho I admit I'm mostly a 5'er).
  • The voicing depends entirely on the build, not the split coil design itself. There are lots of examples of this in all pickup types within a similar design, just different magnets, wire, wind, etc.
I will agree with one thing tho, the new stacked HC does sound fantastic. I have a set and love them.
Click to expand...
 
#49,123
Joeykun said:
@gustobassman Whenever I change to a less or increased tension string, I make sure my intonation has not changed. I would check that and perhaps a tweak here and there will solve your issue.
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Once the bass arrived and I swapped strings I did a full setup to match my light touch (slightly flatter than stock, slightly lower action as well). Of course I follow Roger's guide.

I'm perplexed - I've had a dead spot on the G string on a Fender bass. But nothing like this. Not in the "meat" of the neck.

It look like the neck had shifted slightly in shipping, there was a slight gap on the bass side. I loosened the bolts and reseated the neck. Could that have done this?
 
#49,124
gustobassman said:
Once the bass arrived and I swapped strings I did a full setup to match my light touch (slightly flatter than stock, slightly lower action as well). Of course I follow Roger's guide.

I'm perplexed - I've had a dead spot on the G string on a Fender bass. But nothing like this. Not in the "meat" of the neck.

It look like the neck had shifted slightly in shipping, there was a slight gap on the bass side. I loosened the bolts and reseated the neck. Could that have done this?
Click to expand...

What does the shop have to say? They would be my first call.
 
#49,125
monkeyland said:
What does the shop have to say? They would be my first call.
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I just called them. I posted here to see if anyone else had had the issue. I spoke to Roger and hes sending me a couple of A strings to see if it was the string or not. All will be good.

I have to say I was a little nervous when Roger got on the phone, lol. He's a very nice guy!! Killer customer service.
 
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#49,126
WorktheWood said:
I disagree that a split coil is closer to a typical single coil jazz pickup. In a true single coil you have wire wrapped fully around 10 pole pieces (5 string) sitting under the string. In a stacked design, you have the same situation. The only change is that underneath the sensing coil you have the lower half of the poles wrapped in exactly the same number of winds to cancel hum but not pick up any actual sound. This style is much closer to a true single coil than a split coil. And as I said, a much better design for hum cancelling than a split coil on a 5 string.
Click to expand...
I think you might be confusing single/dual coil with single/dual sensing. Or maybe you're combining them when I feel they should be kept separate.

Dual sensing dual coil is a side by side config, single sensing dual coil is stacked, but it's still a dual coil design in both cases, and will be harder to emulate a true single coil sound... maybe impossible, depending on how particular you are about detail (I'm not that super persnickety, but there are plenty of people who are). In the stacked config, it's dual coils under each string. In the split config, it's a single coil under each string.

Bottom line, looks like we disagree, maybe even strongly, about your assertion that split coils far inferior to stacked. At least IME/IMHO, even in the asymmetrical config, there is a difference, but it's not been night/day for me. I've been very happy with some of the split coil 5's I've played.
 
#49,127
I'm not confusing anything. A stacked single coil pickup is essentially one single coil pickup stacked directly on top of another, with the bottom coil being a "dummy" coil. In a stacked design there is an actual single coil under all strings, just like a true single coil set-up. In a split design, each string does not have its own single coil. There is a single coil under the A, D, and G strings and then a single coil under the B and E strings. This is just like a P bass but with the coils in line as opposed to offset. I think you're confused because it sounds like you think a stacked design has two coils next to each other, both facing the strings instead of stacked on top of each other, with the bottom coil facing the back of the bass.

Vic said:
I think you might be confusing single/dual coil with single/dual sensing. Or maybe you're combining them when I feel they should be kept separate.

Dual sensing dual coil is a side by side config, single sensing dual coil is stacked, but it's still a dual coil design in both cases, and will be harder to emulate a true single coil sound... maybe impossible, depending on how particular you are about detail (I'm not that super persnickety, but there are plenty of people who are). In the stacked config, it's dual coils under each string. In the split config, it's a single coil under each string.

Bottom line, looks like we disagree, maybe even strongly, about your assertion that split coils far inferior to stacked. At least IME/IMHO, even in the asymmetrical config, there is a difference, but it's not been night/day for me. I've been very happy with some of the split coil 5's I've played.
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#49,128
Here's what a stacked single coil looks like. Due to the stacking of coils, this is why more depth is needed in the route for a stacked pickup compared to a split.
 

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#49,130
WorktheWood said:
I'm not confusing anything. A stacked single coil pickup is essentially one single coil pickup stacked directly on top of another, with the bottom coil being a "dummy" coil.
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I don't think this is accurate, which might explain everything. I'm pretty sure the bottom coil isn't a "dummy" coil. It's a second coil wound 180 degrees out. There are still two coils under each string instead of one, both significantly relevant to tone.

Yeah, I know what all the pickups look like. I've had many apart, even repaired some. :)

There's only one "dummy" coil I know of, and it's a MM style pickup, where it's a third coil wound 180 out from the two above it with the pole pieces in them. Of note, the pole pieces don't pass through it, which is why it's called a "dummy". It's used when you have a splittable MM but you still want HC when splitting (clearly when both top coils are turned on, it's already HC). A purist would still argue it affects tone, but it's probably about as passive of a HC circuit as you could design, I think.
 
#49,131
WorktheWood said:
This is a split coil. I'm guessing here but I'm thinking thus designs has less windings than a typical single coil because of the space needed between the pole pieces at the split.
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Not true. If you want more windings, you just use thinner wire, make the pickup slightly taller, use smaller diameter poles, or any/all. The split design does not represent a significant challenge here.

In addition to that, I don't think that gap matters as you suppose it may... take an imaginary knife/soldering iron and cut the coils in the middle, straighten them out, and solder them to be continuous, probably be pretty darn close.
 
#49,132
WorktheWood, tell ya what... Carey Nordstrand is a good friend of mine, and arguably more of an expert on this than either of us will ever be. PM me your email, I can start an email thread with him on this, and he could probably set us both straight. :)
 
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#49,133
Ive made many pickups over the years, but yes I'm far from an expert. When I made the dummy coil comment, it was for explanation purposes to get a point across. And while having a stacked certainly effects the tone and sounds different from a single, the bottom coil isn't actual "picking up" the string vibration, at least not anywhere near to the extent of the upper coil.

As for wanting more windings, if you go to a thinner wire, smaller pole pieces, taller pole pieces, that will significantly change the tone from a vintage style single coil using heavy formvar wire. I only mentioned based on the design many builders have used to replicate a vintage single by using the split design and using formvar and standard size magnets in a split design. In that scenario I believe the split could be an issue.
 
#49,134
WorktheWood said:
Ive made many pickups over the years, but yes I'm far from an expert. When I made the dummy coil comment, it was for explanation purposes to get a point across. And while having a stacked certainly effects the tone and sounds different from a single, the bottom coil isn't actual "picking up" the string vibration, at least not anywhere near to the extent of the upper coil.

As for wanting more windings, if you go to a thinner wire, smaller pole pieces, taller pole pieces, that will significantly change the tone from a vintage style single coil using heavy formvar wire. I only mentioned based on the design many builders have used to replicate a vintage single by using the split design and using formvar and standard size magnets in a split design. In that scenario I believe the split could be an issue.
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We definitely agree that all aspects of the construction matter. But I think we'll always disagree that a stacked could be closer to a single than a split in it's basic tonal nature. I guess that's where we'll just land on this.
 
#49,135
I agree that a stacked doesn't sound exactly like a single. For me, when done right, the stack sounds better. I've heard from many over the year about the mid scoop in the split design and how people complained of lacking mids. Roger's advice almost every time was to switch to single coils due the extra mids. Stacked coils, at least in every brand I've tried, are much fuller in the mids. In that regard, I find them closer to the true single coil sound than splits.

Vic said:
We definitely agree that all aspects of the construction matter. But I think we'll always disagree that a stacked could be closer to a single than a split in it's basic tonal nature. I guess that's where we'll just land on this.
Click to expand...
 
#49,136
WorktheWood said:
I agree that a stacked doesn't sound exactly like a single. For me, when done right, the stack sounds better. I've heard from many over the year about the mid scoop in the split design and how people complained of lacking mids. Roger's advice almost every time was to switch to single coils due the extra mids. Stacked coils, at least in every brand I've tried, are much fuller in the mids. In that regard, I find them closer to the true single coil sound than splits.
Click to expand...
ive never been happy with a split coil due to the upper mid scoop. im interested in hearing the stacks roger is using. any idea whos oem'ing them?
 
#49,137
My guess would be SD. I think they sound a lot better than the split which I never liked from maker. All have been scooped. I'll take a good stack over a true single coil any day. They are typically a little darker sounding than singles but for my 95% fingerstyle playing, they work better.

narud said:
ive never been happy with a split coil due to the upper mid scoop. im interested in hearing the stacks roger is using. any idea whos oem'ing them?
Click to expand...
 

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