Double Bass Colors..

[Jason Sypher]

Sometimes you read a thread and you just think "what a drag this has become". I don't know why, it just starts to feel more self serving than for the collective good. Am I the only one that feels this?

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Exactly. That's why there is little point to this exercise! The adjectives are used differently by different people. Even then, as evidenced by your own plethora of words, there is little consistency. I reject the notion that, somehow, the "in club" of those who have played a large array of these basses will somehow use the terms consistently. That is, there is no support for the assertion that once you've tasted the food, then the adjectives take on meanings that are somehow consistent across observers.

Little point to this exercise? Not at all my friend. To those who have experienced we are sharing notes. To those that haven't experienced, they/you can listen, ask questions or challenge our descriptions with what knowledge or experience you have or wish to acquire.

TB has a wider audience than it did a few years ago. I have met several Symphony players here that Post and have great Basses as well as have sampled the 'spoils'. Many Classically schooled Jazzers here have also tried Basses in their hunt as well as played their Symphony Teachers Basses.

If you feel there is no point to this discussion then may I suggest playing the 'Rests' between the notes or maybe just 'Tacit' and sit this one out entirely. No one is forcing you to participate here.

If one wants to compare Plywoods, Hybrids and carved German Shop Basses which make up the majority of owned instruments within the members, then so be it.

Open minds, open ears and well, wanted or not sometimes, open mouthes..

 

[Eric Swanson]

It is great to listen/read you folks, though.

Within my modest life, the closest I have come to great instruments is through teachers or friends letting me play theirs'. Thank you all for sharing your experience and knowledge, however put. Your differing perspectives and voices create some sort of blended understanding.

Some lovely combination of a trip to the museum, the lab, and the (old) 42nd street of bass porn

 

[drurb]

Little point to this exercise? Not at all my friend. To those who have experienced we are sharing notes.

Seems like elitist snobbery to me. What your own descriptions demonstrate is that even among those "in the know," there is wide variance among the way the words are used. Actually, I'd be happy to learn of the experiences and subjective impressions of players who have far more experience than I have gained over the past 35 years. Applying inconsistently used adjectives is not going to get me there and, according to you, the words cannot even be understood by the unwashed masses who are outside the special club:

...Those who have played Basses like these seem to understand the Lingo. Others, well it's like describing something like a new food. Until you taste it, the words mean very little.

Thus:

...it just starts to feel more self serving than for the collective good.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Sometimes you read a thread and you just think "what a drag this has become". I don't know why, it just starts to feel more self serving than for the collective good. Am I the only one that feels this?

Who are you referring to? Do you mean like personal entertainment or something more like business related?

Talk about a new Plywood Bass and what the Posts go off the charts. Talk about a master grade DB and watch all the head scratching. Why is that?

I haven't seen a Fast food cook off yet on the Iron Chef show, only Gourmet! Maybe they have a higher standard for discussion, you think?

 

[Eric Swanson]

Talk about a new Plywood Bass and what the Posts go off the charts. Talk about a master grade DB and watch all the head scratching. Why is that?

I

For me, anyway, there are at least two things going on in terms of interest, participation, and inspiration:

- Practical, comparative information on how to make my (or other) inexpensive instruments perform better. Because so many of us choose to spend relatively small amounts of money on our basses, the number of people directly involved in any given discussion on cheap instruments is larger.

- Powerful inspiration received from viewing and hearing about great instruments. I do not think that I will ever forget the way that Robert Brennand's or Lew Norton's bass' felt, looked, and sounded, until the day I die. Because I will probably never play at their level, however, it is less likely that I will own an instrument of that caliber. Fewer do, so fewer talk about it.

Still, for me, these master instruments are inspirational, similar to the great pro players. The stunning amount of energy, skill, and magic required to build a bass that really works well, and the amount of great music that has passed through a great old instrument is such a powerful, positive force. Pleases me deeply to even read about it. I am however, much less likely to have anything much to say about the instruments except to make appreciative, happy noises (sort of like this )

 

[Mike Arnopol]

My frustration with the TB forums is that most of the posts are from not-so-professional players. Which is great. I wish when I was coming up that there was so much helpful info. I play slab as much as upright, and I won't even go on the electric bass side of TB. The upright side is completely enlightened by comparison.
I have played jazz for a living for 30 years. I have owned some very nice basses through the years. After having kids, I painfully sold my good basses and bough a house in the burbs and put aside college money. I was fortunate enough to find an inexpensive German bass that was re-graduated that sounds fantastic. Not killin' accoustically, but records and amplifies like a dream. Maybe post-kids-college I'll get another really nice bass. Pattitucci was playing opposite me one night and had to come and see the bass I was playing. He had heard it on recordings.He was shocked to see that it was a pedestrian German bass.
I think people are missing the point. I have read a lot of Ken's past posts and he has strong opinions that are stated strongly sometimes. But, I think that his intentions here are not to create a snob-fest. I currently don't own a bass like in Ken's stable. But like Ken, I'm a double bass geek. I think he is just trying to have an intelligent discussion about putting the abstractions of playing different nice instruments in a more accessable forum and discussing them. Just because a person doesn't own an $80k bass doesn't mean that he can't have a profound, memorable experience in playing one. The measurement stuff and psychoaccoustic babble is just wanking, in my opinion. There is such a myriad of unmeasurable variables occuring when one plays a bass that I think trying to describe the tactile and aural sensations of playing is viable, valuable discussion. Who gives a s@&t about FFT, spectrum analysis, etc. I'm not saying that these things are without value, just that they describe such a small pecentage of the playing experience as to be of little value. I think that discussions of the latest, greatest plywood hybrids is important. That is likely as far as most players will go in their careers. I'm not trying to be mean---just factual. So why is it of little value to understand the lineage of fine double basses and dicussion of their attributes ? I may not be able to afford a Degas painting, or be capable of creating a work of art of that caliber, but does that make discussions about art an exercise in egotistical snobbery? In my opinion, the lineage of fine double basses is as much artistry as fine paintings. I'll end here because I have to go over to the electric bass side of TB to check out the newest fuzz tone pedals to come out.

 

[Arduy]

I am a little bit too curious now, sorry. It's in my nature. I would like to put the issue differently: if the same double bass were to be listened to ten times, and only with different strings on it each time , would it be possible to hear that it's an English bass, or French or whichever other nation?

 

[dchan]

Great post, Mike. +1. It has inspired me to post on my teacher's bass now that I have a clearer idea of what to say about 'colors'. Why talk about low-end basses when you can have a conversation about true masterpieces. Snobbery? I don't think talking talking about high-art is snobbery, especially considering that your favorite low-end bass was probably based on the forms of these basses.

My teacher has an Italian Gamba-shaped bass (I guess it would be a good addition to Ken's Italian Gamba thread). This gamba-shaped bass was easily the greatest bass-playing experience I've ever had. It played like a dream, and it spoke immediately as I was playing it. Compare his bass to my school's Juzek (which hasn't been professionally setup for several years, but the 'color' of its sound will still be the same after setup, I think): the Juzek's notes feel like they're a step behind whenever I play.

As for the actual color of the sound, my teacher's bass has this gorgeous deep sound that has absolutely amazing clarity. I would describe the 'color' as very fine and silky yet deep and powerful. The Juzek's 'color' is deep and powerful, but it is definitely not silky by any means of the imagination. Overall, my teacher's bass has this lush and varied palette of colors that's just beautiful; my school's Juzek on the other hand has a rather thin palette of 'colors' to work with and a far simpler sound. Yeah, I'm comparing a roughly $5,000 bass to a who knows how much master bass, so it's not the greatest comparison.

My teacher also has another bass that he claims to have bought for a ridiculously low price (I think it was less than a $1,000). It has violin corners and several layers of purfling, and I think it's also another old Italian bass. From what I've heard, it was appraised recently for $85,000. My teacher says he was buying a cello from an old lady when he noticed a bass in a couple of pieces in the corner. He tells her he wants to buy it, but the lady tells him he doesn't want it; he insisted upon buying it from her. He says he simply glued the neck on and never had it fixed properly.

As for its sound: it doesn't have that deep sound of his main bass, but it's an amazing sound nonetheless. I would say the color of the violin-cornered bass is similar to the color of his main
bass, only without the very deep sound. It has an overall brighter 'color', yet it has that silky and fine 'color' to it; you might even call this quality that "Italian" sound. If he brings it with him next week, I'll ask to play it; actually, I would not mind playing his other bass again also.

On a related note, my teacher also has a Fetique that he claims to have bought from a string shop for around $800. This was about 20 years or so back, I think.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I am a little bit too curious now, sorry. It's in my nature. I would like to put the issue differently: if the same double bass were to be listened to ten times, and only with different strings on it each time , would it be possible to hear that it's an English bass, or French or whichever other nation?

Not in my opinion. It makes 'that' Bass play or sound different but doesn't change 'what' it is. I have used several types of string on many of my Basses while string testing. I hear better and worse coming from various strings but it doesn't change my Gilkes into my Storioni. That is in the Bass itself, not the strings.

I have played many Basses in various conditions that were just great Basses. New strings may alter the sound somewhat but not change it. Like changing clothes, still the same person inside. He just feels better dressed up, or maybe not..

 

[Don Higdon]

This thread might develop into folks posting subjective terms describing their own impressions of the sounds of different basses. While we can all pretty much agree on general terms such as "bright" (more high-frequency overtones) and "deep" (more low-frequency partials), once things go much beyond that, the imprecision of such subjective terms and the fact that different people use them to refer to different aspects of sounds will, I am afraid, not allow us to learn much about how people classify and identify the sound of double basses from different "schools" of makers.

I haven't seen anything on this thread that invalidates this view.

 

[drurb]

I may not be able to afford a Degas painting, or be capable of creating a work of art of that caliber, but does that make discussions about art an exercise in egotistical snobbery? In my opinion, the lineage of fine double basses is as much artistry as fine paintings.

I agree with most of your sentiments. What would make it snobbery would be the assertion that those less familiar with a Degas couldn't even understand the meaning of the adjectives used in the discussion of the art. That type of assertion is what provoked a strong reaction.

 

[drurb]

Snobbery? I don't think talking talking about high-art is snobbery, especially considering that your favorite low-end bass was probably based on the forms of these basses.

Nor do I. What makes it snobbery is when exclusionary statements are made such as:

To those who have experienced we are sharing notes.

...Those who have played Basses like these seem to understand the Lingo. Others, well it's like describing something like a new food. Until you taste it, the words mean very little.

 

[Matthew Tucker]

Not only is it like wine appreciation; it is like discussing religion!

So, what if we agree to leave science right out of this thread, and talk only in subjective terms? We can start another thread about the scientific analysis of bass sounds and see how that is taken up.

It's natural for a thread about plywood basses to go off the charts; it's what most of us have most experience with. And Ken, I think you learned some time ago to play the rests in those threads! Ken and a very few others are privileged to be able to discuss master basses that others can only imagine. so it is elitist in a way. But it doesn't prevent us reading and learning and having a view, any more than we might enjoy a magazine article on a maserati, a review of Grange Hermitage or even an Uma Thurman photo shoot...

For my part, I'd love to understand what "silky" or "oily" means when applied by Ken to a basses tone. Perhaps only a recording will serve to enlighten me here in Sydney.

 

[drurb]

Not only is it like wine appreciation; it is like discussing religion!

So, what if we agree to leave science right out of this thread, and talk only in subjective terms? We can start another thread about the scientific analysis of bass sounds and see how that is taken up.

It's natural for a thread about plywood basses to go off the charts; it's what most of us have most experience with. And Ken, I think you learned some time ago to play the rests in those threads! Ken and a very few others are privileged to be able to discuss master basses that others can only imagine. so it is elitist in a way. But it doesn't prevent us reading and learning and having a view, any more than we might enjoy a magazine article on a maserati, a review of Grange Hermitage or even an Uma Thurman photo shoot...

For my part, I'd love to understand what "silky" or "oily" means when applied by Ken to a basses tone. Perhaps only a recording will serve to enlighten me here in Sydney.

Matthew, I agree completely. I think in this type of discussion, science should be pretty much left out. You will notice that I was not one of the ones calling for "objective" laboratory-based measures or practices here. I very much enjoy and cherish useful and informative discussions of master basses. That's why I drool over some of the articles in Double Bassist. I agree that it can be very much like reading an article about a car that is, for all practical purposes, unattainable. The operative words for me are "useful and informative." I just think that soliciting loosely defined, inconsistently used, idiosyncratic adjectives about the sound of different "schools" of basses doesn't yield much insight about those basses. You and others may disagree and see it differently. Beyond that, it's even worse, to use your analogy, to suggest that if you haven't had experience with that Maserati, then you really cannot appreciate an article about it and any discussion is really among those "in the know."

 

[Matthew Tucker]

it's even worse, to use your analogy, to suggest that if you haven't had experience with that Maserati, then you really cannot appreciate an article about it and any discussion is really among those "in the know."

Well, there is a degree of that though. I'll never really know the true rush of accelerating to 300kph in three seconds surrounded by whisky-cured buffalo hide and Uma draped over the back seat ...

 

[Uncletoad]

Uma draped over the back seat ...

ahh the first thing in this thread that gets my attention.


Uma.....Uma.....

 

[ctregan]

I find this thread incredibly interesting and very informative.
Thanks for sharing it with us.

 

[Low8va]

To respond to the original question posed in this discussion, I am of the opinion that while each school of bass making has tendencies and common characteristics, it is naive to believe that all Italian basses possess the same basic "color" pallet (or English, French, etc..), and therefore it is likely that one can't definitively know the origin of a bass from simply listening to it. Last year I (thankfully) completed a bass search, during which I was looking for a very high quality instrument. During that time I played approx. 100 basses ranging from 25K to 100K, ranging from Italian to English to French to you name it (including some modern basses).

I have read some generalities used to describe various schools of making. French = bright, Italian = dark & smooth, English = woody & refined. While this can certainly be said of individual examples, it is not always true. I have played French instruments, a primo Claudot or an exceptional Hawkes (Panormo copy), that are extremely dark and full sounding basses. I recently played a bass from John Lott that I would bet my life saving was Italian that made 99% of the actual Italian instruments I have played sound bright and indistinct. One of the best basses I have ever known, currently at Robertson's shop, is German (Stainer). My point is that if you search out a type of sound based purely on the country in which a bass was made, or more specifically a perception of what that school "generally" has to offer, you may be missing a large group of possibilities that you may be blind to, due simply to a preconceived idea that clouds your impressions in a negative way.

I have come to the conclusion that regardless of origin, a bass that is in balance in it's setup and is vibrating at it's peak, whose voice is a match to you, who cares if you can tell where it was made? So long as you pay a reasonable market price for it, whatever it is, and love making music on it, you are golden. Unfortunately, this is a task easier to talk about that to realize in the flesh.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Man, I can't believe that so much has gone on in the past 5 hours?
Francis--- I just wanted to clarify that re: art appreciation, I am adament that art should stand on its own without specific education required to appreciate it. I can't tell you how many times someone has come up to me and said " I don't know enough about jazz to say whether I like it". I say--" well, did you enjoy listening? They say "yeah" and I say " then apparently you know enough". I hate art snobbery. I don't know a lot of tecnical stuff about art, but in my travels I go to as many art museums and galleries as possible. If I like it, then it's good art to me.

I think that scientific discussions about instrument construction is fascinating. Any of you hip to Carleen Hutchens studies on graduation based on essentially turning a violin (or bass ) top into essentially a speaker and following the patterns made by iron powder to indicate where it needs to be thinner? This is documented stuff. Bob Daugherty, the great repairman does this. He took a factory German bass and regraduated it using this technique. My friend Steve Rodby owns it. The bass sounds amazing. Science and its advances can only help the evolution of instruments. But there are so many myriad variables in instruments that trying to quantify them all and making sense of them scientifically is akin to a cave man throwing a rock at the moon.
Music is ideally a right brain experience. The right brain deals in intuitive and abstract information. When you play a great bass and respond to how so many variables come together almost magically, trying to dissect and describe that experience is near impossible. But it's fun to try. As I tell my students---describe your worst musical moments. One can remember sounds, visuals, even smells----thousands of tiny details. Because your worst musical moments are responded to by largely your left brain. Describe your best musical moments. Most students will say " I can't remember many details, just that it felt great" This is the realm of the left brain. Playing a great instrument is like that to me---it just feels great. I'd still like to figure out why, though.