Double Bass Colors..

[drurb]

To respond to the original question posed in this discussion, I am of the opinion that while each school of bass making has tendencies and common characteristics, it is naive to believe that all Italian basses possess the same basic "color" pallet (or English, French, etc..), and therefore it is likely that one can't definitively know the origin of a bass from simply listening to it. Last year I (thankfully) completed a bass search, during which I was looking for a very high quality instrument. During that time I played approx. 100 basses ranging from 25K to 100K, ranging from Italian to English to French to you name it (including some modern basses).

I have read some generalities used to describe various schools of making. French = bright, Italian = dark & smooth, English = woody & refined. While this can certainly be said of individual examples, it is not always true. I have played French instruments, a primo Claudot or an exceptional Hawkes (Panormo copy), that are extremely dark and full sounding basses. I recently played a bass from John Lott that I would bet my life saving was Italian that made 99% of the actual Italian instruments I have played sound bright and indistinct. One of the best basses I have ever known, currently at Robertson's shop, is German (Stainer). My point is that if you search out a type of sound based purely on the country in which a bass was made, or more specifically a perception of what that school "generally" has to offer, you may be missing a large group of possibilities that you may be blind to, due simply to a preconceived idea that clouds your impressions in a negative way.

This makes eminent sense! My intuition was that if one had the good fortune to sample a large number of these basses in a reasonably short time as you did, then one would likely find that the variance between individual members of a "school" was large enough such that generalizations would be readily violated. Thank you for sharing this. I also wonder how much of the seemingly consistent attributes ascribed to, say, Italian basses comes about because when a person evaluates one, he usually knows it is an Italian bass. This is not to say that reasonable generalizations cannot be made. It is only to question their usefulness. Still, I think it's fun to read what people think those generalizations are.

 

[mheintz]

Some questions: Is it the school or is it the size and string length associated with that school? E.g., is what gives English or Yankee basses their character those enormous shoulders? In other words, is there some consistency among typically English designs or typically French designs?

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Some questions: Is it the school or is it the size and string length associated with that school? E.g., is what gives English or Yankee basses their character those enormous shoulders? In other words, is there some consistency among typically English designs or typically French designs?

I believe it is the School of making that gives it the 'color' and texture of sound. The size will change the volume of sound within its registers but size alone does not make it what it is.

I have tested and owned many Basses of similar dimensions and they did not sound the same if comparing German to English, etc. Just a few minutes ago I tested a Invalid Link Removed (on my website) and compared it to my [Invalid or Expired Link Removed].

Guess which Bass was louder and which was deeper? Look at both Basses and their measurements before guessing. I will answer after 2 or more guesses. Both the owner of the German Bass and myself played and listened from a distance to compare them A/B.

Two weeks ago we compared the Gilkes, Hart and Loveri in a blindfold test at 40 feet away at the other end on the office out of sight. I guessed all 3 Basses wrong and I own and play them! My friend who has played all the Basses at one time or another guessed all 3 Basses correct so go figure.

 

[Don Higdon]

I also wonder how much of the seemingly consistent attributes ascribed to, say, Italian basses comes about because when a person evaluates one, he usually knows it is an Italian bass.[1]....This is not to say that reasonable generalizations cannot be made. It is only to question their usefulness. Still, I think it's fun to read what people think those generalizations are.[2]

[1]The mirror image of this: I brought a bass for appraisal by a big name luthier (not Arnold, not Gage) I didn't give any information about its background or what it was represented to me to be. He was totally lost. He missed on all counts, as I found out when I finally learned its history.
[2] All generalizations are wrong.

 

[mheintz]

I believe it is the School of making that gives it the 'color' and texture of sound. The size will change the volume of sound within its registers but size alone does not make it what it is.

I have tested and owned many Basses of similar dimensions and they did not sound the same if comparing German to English, etc. Just a few minutes ago I tested a Invalid Link Removed (on my website) and compared it to my [Invalid or Expired Link Removed].

Guess which Bass was louder and which was deeper? Look at both Basses and their measurements before guessing. I will answer after 2 or more guesses. Both the owner of the German Bass and myself played and listened from a distance to compare them A/B.

Interesting. With no real basis for evaluation, I'll guess the Loveri. I have played only one old Italian bass. I believe it was in 1994. I was trying out a variety of basses at the Bass Viol shop in Cincinnati and for comparison, Dennis Knight let me try a fantastic Italian bass. It was heads and shoulders above the other basses there. Unfortunately, I can't remember the maker. The list price... that I remember: $63,000.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Interesting. With no real basis for evaluation, I'll guess the Loveri. I have played only one old Italian bass. I believe it was in 1994. I was trying out a variety of basses at the Bass Viol shop in Cincinnati and for comparison, Dennis Knight let me try a fantastic Italian bass. It was heads and shoulders above the other basses there. Unfortunately, I can't remember the maker. The list price... that I remember: $63,000.

Just a few minutes ago I tested a German Orchestral Bass shaped like a French Bass (on my website) and compared it to my Loveri with cut sloping shoulders.

Guess which Bass was louder and which was deeper? Look at both Basses and their measurements before guessing. I will answer after 2 or more guesses. Both the owner of the German Bass and myself played and listened from a distance to compare them A/B.

Ok, here's a hint for those willing to post a guess. One Bass is deeper and one is louder, not both the same Bass.

 

[debassr]

Wow. This is one of the weirdest threads I've ever come across on TB.

 

[Ike Harris]

Ok, here's a hint for those willing to post a guess. One Bass is deeper and one is louder, not both the same Bass.

Based on a little insider info, I'd guess the German was louder, the Loveri deeper.

-ike

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Based on a little insider info, I'd guess the German was louder, the Loveri deeper.

-ike

Who do you got on the inside?..lol

Are we up to 2 or more guesses yet?

 

[ctregan]

The Loveri is louder because..... the f holes are bigger
The German shaped like a french bass is deeper because..... it has a swelled back

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

The Loveri is louder because..... the f holes are bigger
The German shaped like a french bass is deeper because..... it has a swelled back

A 360 degree difference of opinion here guys..

I'm not saying who's right yet but I like the reasons why stated with the guess. Makes it more interesting. I didn't hear color of Varnish affecting the 'deeper' sound yet and thank you for not mentioning it..lol

 

[labravajazz]

I'd be guessing the German louder and the Italian deeper......

just from my own limited experience

 

[Eric Swanson]

Seems impossible to guess based on looks. I would think that the instruments' performance would have more to do with component thickness, mode matching, and construction. I guess that we are assuming that similar strings are found on both instruments.

Just for the fun of playing, I would guess "loud" for the Loveri, based on its' former home in the NY Phil. The few folks I had any contact there appreciated volume in their instruments (among other things).

So that would leave "deep" for the German. What puzzles me is that I have always heard that the French basses have a rep for being brighter, so I would think that a German patterned after French would be bright, too. Perhaps the maker used the shape without the thicker components I hear about on French instruments. I guess I am assuming that "deep" is somewhere close to, if not the same as "dark."

So, tell us, please? My curiosity is piqued...

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Well, on the Strings the German has Stark Flexocor 92s. The Loveri (Italian) has regular 92s. The Loveri is a very punchy sounding Bass and with Starks it is just a tad deeper sounding but plays easier with the regular tensioned 92s.

The German Bass with its deeper Ribs, wider Bouts, round Back and its higher arched Top juts has more airspace period. This is an old well played Bass. I have played next to it in several concerts but usually can't hear much of it as I had either my Gilkes, Martini or Storioni in my hands which are very loud Basses.

Although the Loveri seems to be a loud and punchy Bass even after restoration with putting out its maximum tone and volume it just didn't seem as loud as the German in the test. The German Bass was the first one played when I listened to it. I heard good lows and highs but sounded a little hollow in the middle. I was ready to yell out "that's the Loveri" but waited until the second Bass was played. Then I heard this deep low spreading sound on the floor with a smooth silky tone. At that point I walked out from around the corner from the room I was in saying "that's the Loveri" and then saw I was correct.

The NY Phil has had some great Basses in the section. The Loveri was used in there quite a long time ago. When I spoke with the former owner he mentioned he just wanted more sound and got virtually a bigger Bass to replace it.

Arnold has told me that Basses with smaller upper bouts have less sound than similar Basses with larger upper bouts. A good example is the Homer Mensch attributed Gagliano. When that Bass first came to Paul Biase's for sale he had another just like it in the opposite corner. Same Scroll, same wood, same varnish and only slightly different FFs. The other Bass however was not cut down at all and had a louder and deeper sound. Homer's Bass was easier to play and sounded sweeter. Homer did play in the NY Phil with that Bass and I bet it was comparable to the Loveri is some ways but generally a bigger Bass as well.

With comparing the Loveri to the German Bass we have two completely different schools of thought here. The Varnish types used originally on each Bass is very different as is the species of woods and grain patterns. Just two different animals entirely. Despite the comparison of the Loveri sounding deeper and the German sounding louder, either Bass will work just fine for Jazz or Orchestra. Also, the string height off the fingerboard (aka action) was much higher on the German than the Loveri. Maybe if the Loveri had Starks and more height off the fingerboard it would have come closer to putting out as much volume but it wasn't set-up exactly the same.

How much difference are we talking about here with volume and tone between the two Basses?

Maybe about 20-30% at most!

 

[Matthew Tucker]

two different animals entirely. Despite the comparison of the Loveri sounding deeper and the German sounding louder, either Bass will work just fine for Jazz or Orchestra. [...] Maybe if the Loveri had Starks and more height off the fingerboard it would have come closer to putting out as much volume but it wasn't set-up exactly the same.

so?

Despite the comparison of the apple tasting tarter and the pear tasting sweeter, both will work just fine in a fruit salad or a crumble [...] Maybe if the apple had a pointy end and a thinner skin it would have come closer to sweetness of the pear, but it was still different.

Sorry, I still don't get it. I get it how you can subjectively compare one bass against the other ... but how you can extrapolate and attribute the difference to this thing or that, I just don't understand what this is telling us. There are too many variables, paricularly between these two basses.

One's gamba, one has violin corners. One has sloping shoulders the other full shoulders. rib depth is different. wood is different. provenance is different. String length different, strings different ....

What do these two basses have in common?

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

so?

Despite the comparison of the apple tasting tarter and the pear tasting sweeter, both will work just fine in a fruit salad or a crumble [...] Maybe if the apple had a pointy end and a thinner skin it would have come closer to sweetness of the pear, but it was still different.

Sorry, I still don't get it. I get it how you can subjectively compare one bass against the other ... but how you can extrapolate and attribute the difference to this thing or that, I just don't understand what this is telling us. There are too many variables, paricularly between these two basses.

One's gamba, one has violin corners. One has sloping shoulders the other full shoulders. rib depth is different. wood is different. provenance is different. String length different, strings different ....

What do these two basses have in common?

Well, they seem to both have you confused..lol

If the slightly smaller Loveri sounded louder overall, I would be surprised but would have attributed it to its Italian province.

Violin or Gamba is not that different inside the Bass. The Corners lock the Bouts in place just the same with the Violin model being more fancy on the outside. The inner outline is more like a Guitar if you trace them out and compare.

On another note, my Storioni Attr. Cornerless Bass has a Flatback and narrower ribs than the German and blows it out of the water completely.

For tone, Quality and Orchestral usage, Double Basses are ranked by province but mainly due to performance history. The Italians historically bring the most money on the Top end, then comes the English and then the other Italians in that order. French, German and all the rest are behind them price wise and demand wise. Every pro player that has contacted me asked for either Italian, English or both. Often they ask for English thinking they might be cheaper but the better grade English Basses in the last 2 years have been hitting some big numbers. A few Italians last year sold for the half Mil mark and over. These of course were some of the best in the world, one being a d'Salo.

So what causes what here? I can't say exactly but players looking for the best usually get Italian or English. A few are buying new Basses as well. I played 2 made by Jeff Bollbach and several made by Arnold Schnitzer as well as some by a few others and these Basses made with all the studied knowledge of 400 years past will be the great Basses of tomorrow. I plan on owning another as well someday soon as I just sold the Lionshead by Jeff.

Older Basses made by the French, German, Italian or even English may not of had the hindsight that we have today or at least the willingness to look with open eyes to what's there. The English I guess did the best job in copying the Italians and some of the better German models available in their day. This exploratory attitude of the new quality makers of today I feel is what was lacking on many of the Basses of yesteryear.

 

[Contrabbasso]

I haven't read all of the responses here to date; however,
there are some very good points made.

On this Talk bass website it would be nice to have a
generally agreed upon glossary of terms and definitions
to use in these discussions even if basic or maybe a
knowledge based link page.

It may sound like a pipe dream; however, "if I was
a luthier or had the money I'd like to try and
make a Double bass with controls over it's sound
qualities.
I believe all would agree that carved basses
"sound qualities" vary as they age and
change due to the conditions
of there environment.

How many times have we seen someone write,
"My bass Opened uP " ?

I believe "the player" has the biggest influence
over a subject instruments sound qualities;however,

Why not make a bass that "opened-up" when
you wanted it to with a knob or lever?

Will someone please create a Doublebass
with mechanical volume, tone and timbre control in my
lifetime for around ??$2000?? Thank you.

"Why not change it's, it's, it's ? ?


Here are some cool links to a couple of articles
that may give some interesting perspectives
and terminology to use in this discussion on the "Colors"
and the various construction methods of Double Bass string instruments.


-Acoustical Studies of the Flat-backed and Round-backed Double Bass>

Invalid Link Removed

-----------------------------------------------------
-John McCarty studies and attempts to analyze
and address "Timbre" in an interesting way.

Link Removed


----------------------------------------------------

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Making a new Bass and playing a restored or well aged old Bass is just not the same thing. You have all that experience added to the Bass along with its matured sound on the old Basses. Even the New Basses that I have played that had a great 'old world' sound, still sounded somewhat new to me. It's just not the same to my ears.

 

[Eric Swanson]

-Acoustical Studies of the Flat-backed and Round-backed Double Bass>

Invalid Link Removed

-----------------------------------------------------
-John McCarty studies and attempts to analyze
and address "Timbre" in an interesting way.

Link Removed


----------------------------------------------------

Contrabasso, thank you very much for posting those links here. Interesting reading (plus pictures!)

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Very interesting reading. Thanks for the link.

Point of note here is that in testing Basses you cannot compare an Italian Flatback to a German Roundback and come up with any type of useful information for comparison. What you can do is make ONE Bass and make TWO Backs (flat and round) for it from the Exact Flitch of wood. Same Varnish and everything. Do all the tests possible, then pull off one Back and put the other one on and do the same. You will not be able to do a side by side test but you can use either recording devices and/or your memory. Even two Basses made from the exact same wood in two different styles will vary and even it they were made the same because no two instruments or pieces of wood are or can be 100% identical.

That being said, I don't think this particular link has much to do with the topic as far as Colors go between Italian or other Basses regardless of the Back or Corner design being similar or different. More so than two Basses of different schools or periods if construction is the same.

This is my personal observation. We are tasting Wines here in a relative sense and not which drink cools you down best on a hot summer day!

Experience is the best teacher. What I hear today, is different and more refined than what I was able to hear or looking for 10 years ago.

Play 2 or 3 old English Basses and 2 or 3 old Italian Basses side by side in the same room. Then you can see what I am talking about as far as color and general differences between the two schools.