Comparing the tone of three different "boutique" cables

[ggunn]

Understood. But I thought the whole point was that the cables apparently DO sound different and that the reason they do is what's in question. If they were truly transparent none of this would be an issue. I personally think for all intents and purposes, given the way I use my bass, a decent cable that won't break is fine. I don't particularly care if it sounds different than another cable because if it's working right it won't make more than a tiny difference in the real world.

I thought that the point was that they *don't* sound different in spite of the fact that someone who spends a lot of money on high dollar cables may be predisposed to hear something that validates the expense.

You know, I do not discount out of hand that something in the analysis may be masking data that might be important. What I do not hold with is the sort of mysticism that some folks assert (not pointing at you or anyone else in particular) that unmeasurable quantities are in play. What we are talking about is accuracy in passing an analog waveform through a conductor, and differences between input and output are measurable.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Interesting and Mike thanks, I think you have added a lot to the discussion.

As I stated earlier I prefer using a 10' monster cable for my DB playing (piezo pickup) rather then a spectraflex or other cables. It seems to attenuate the nasty highs, it's not night and day but noticable to me.

Maybe I am imagining this and maybe all my cables test the same, I don't know. What I do know is that I hear a difference, if it's imagined or real doesn't much matter as it sounds better to my ears.

Now I am not going to freak out if I don't have this cable for a gig it's not that important in the grand scheme of things and I can guarantee within an ensemble nobody can tell any difference.

I appreciate the work on these tests and everybodys thoughts, it is educational and interesting, but I am not going to stop using that cable because of it...

 

[thepontif]

My argument is that cables are electrical conductors, and their performance as electrical conductors can be quantified. You want to argue the taste of apples and the perception of sound, that's fine, but for me to pay any attention to that argument, you'll have to explain to me what that has to do with the performance of one electrical conductor versus another.

I think the argument has become more broad than just a cable at this point. I totally agree that when listening with an objective ear, two cables with the same measured characteristics will probably sound the same. But you can't ignore people's perception. It's a frustrating part of being an audio designer which, as you may or may not know, I've been for many years. It's one of the very reasons I'm loathed to publish the EQ curves for my MPP preamps. Because people are going to start comparing it to other preamps based on numbers instead of listening to it. You can't appreciate how good it sounds until you get it out on a gig anyway.

Long and short, the electrical performance of a piece of equipment is one part of the equation, but how it sounds to somebody is as much a result of that as it is the marketing, packaging, who else has one, yada yada. You just can't change that...or control it.

Still, measuring teaches you how it measures...not how it sounds.

I understand, we characterize things in the only way we can.

I'm not a belief based guy, trust me. I loath that way of thinking in lieu of facts. I've had good success in this industry as a designer with Fodera and on my own. Unlike anyone else who does what I do (that I know of anyway), I also share the stage with lots of world class musicians at the highest level and have experienced (and do experience) the same relationship with my instrument and gear that some of the best bassists in the world do. And from my perspective, there is more to the story than any set of measurements. Do I think it's quantifiable? Yes. I think EVERYTHING is quantifiable. I just don't think words and numbers are the only way to do it.

 

[thepontif]

I thought that the point was that they *don't* sound different in spite of the fact that someone who spends a lot of money on high dollar cables may be predisposed to hear something that validates the expense.

You know, I do not discount out of hand that something in the analysis may be masking data that might be important. What I do not hold with is the sort of mysticism that some folks assert (not pointing at you or anyone else in particular) that unmeasurable quantities are in play. What we are talking about is accuracy in passing an analog waveform through a conductor, and differences between input and output are measurable.

I don't get why if something is not describable accurately with numbers and words, that makes it mystical. There's a whole mode of operation in life that's non verbal that has nothing to do with mysticism.

I do agree that cables don't make a lot of difference. But a high capacitance cable between an active bass and an amp will sound different than the same cable between a passive bass and an amp. It will sound, AND measure differently. So I guess I've lost track of where the thread is at this point.

 

[Florox]

All in all, I think it impressed me to notice how even Analysis Plus cables sound the same. Not because of the price or anything, but because they have a patent on it; you can't patent snake oil. But then again, there's always different ways of reaching the same goal. I figure that now our dilemma would be finding the cable that has the least noise and the one that's the most durable. Anyhow, even if we don't, this thread should be sticky'd.

 

[BrBss]

I haven't read EVERY post up to this point, but I believe there is one thing that hasn't been mentioned:

The graphs bongo is providing are graphs of impedance vs. frequency. The impedance is, in part, determined BY the capacitance of the cable. So the capacitance isn't being ignored here. A purely resistive load won't vary with frequency*, so the fluctuations are caused by the capacitance and inductance (which is very small) of the cable.


*Technically, it will increase a little bit, but probably won't be significant until frequency is in the MHz.


EDIT: Also, I believe this graph is how the signal coming from an active bass would appear (since it will have a near zero output impedance). A passive bass will be affected more, because (basically) you are increasing the load the pickups have to "drive".

 

[gruvlow]

I see the true flaw in your study.




I didn't include monster cables! We ALL know they have the true impact on tone............

Monster, George L's, Mogami, etc..

 

[Passinwind]

OK, here is an RMAA test of the system (using the shortest-possible patch cable) and the two previous cables, the Musician's Gear cheapo and the Evidence Audio Lyric HG:

Link Removed

Those noise levels seem really high. Maybe I'm not understanding your test protocol correctly though?

 

[bongomania]

I imagine you understand it perfectly well, and it's just that there's some high-frequency distortion or "mystery hash" in the sound card that is being read as noise... or it really is that noisy. My workspace has high EMF levels.

To recap the method used:
computer --> firewire --> Presonus Firestudio Mobile line output--> one end of cable
other end of cable --> instrument input of Presonus --> firewire --> computer

 

[bongomania]

I do agree that cables don't make a lot of difference. But a high capacitance cable between an active bass and an amp will sound different than the same cable between a passive bass and an amp. It will sound, AND measure differently. So I guess I've lost track of where the thread is at this point.

Well, we're covering a lot of territory. One thing I've proven already is that all of these cables perform identically on the spectrum analysis when placed in series with a passive bass pickup. And as somebody noted just a little bit ago, the spectrum analysis would in fact reveal impedance changes that reflect the specific cable's interaction with the source and load.

Can you suggest a good DIY circuit for lowering the z in of the audio converter without adding too much distortion? Say, from 1M down to 100K, or even 20K for more exaggerated effect?

 

[peterpalmieri]

I imagine you understand it perfectly well, and it's just that there's some high-frequency distortion or "mystery hash" in the sound card that is being read as noise... or it really is that noisy. My workspace has high EMF levels.

To recap the method used:
computer --> firewire --> Presonus Firestudio Mobile line output--> one end of cable
other end of cable --> instrument input of Presonus --> firewire --> computer

Are you saying you are using a recorded signal and not running the cable directly from a passive bass guitar, through the test cable?

 

[bongomania]

I'm using pink noise generated by the testing software. When I ran the cable in series with a P bass pickup, I was still using pink noise as the test signal--just running it through the pickup.

There is not a scientifically-reliable means within my budget for using the action of a vibrating string over the pickup as a test signal.

 

[peterpalmieri]

I'm using pink noise generated by the testing software. When I ran the cable in series with a P bass pickup, I was still using pink noise as the test signal--just running it through the pickup.

There is not a scientifically-reliable means within my budget for using the action of a vibrating string over the pickup as a test signal.

I understand you wanting to provide a consistent signal through each cable and of course cost limitations.

Do you or other experts on this topic really feel you are capturing all the variables by not taking a signal of a vibrating string through the pickup?

 

[scotch]

I understand you wanting to provide a consistent signal through each cable and of course cost limitations.

Do you or other experts on this topic really feel you are capturing all the variables by not taking a signal of a vibrating string through the pickup?

I don't think the point is to analyze the subtle factors of instrument design, pickup design, wood density, ambient temperature, etc... but rather test the claims about the cables themselves. As in, does cable 'A' really transmit transients better than cable 'B', and such.

We can go back & forth all day over all of the factors contributing to tone, but that's too broad a scope to deal with using easily digestible data (if even possible!).

 

[Altitude]

I'm thrilled. I will keep on buying my Canare/GH cables from Butch Ammons, at a very nice price point.

His order turnaround time has slipped a little though, gotta say.

 

[bongomania]

I understand you wanting to provide a consistent signal through each cable and of course cost limitations.
Do you or other experts on this topic really feel you are capturing all the variables by not taking a signal of a vibrating string through the pickup?

There are far too many variables that come into play when you vibrate a string in any circumstance other than the tightest laboratory controls. It makes much more sense, from a testing perspective, to send a tightly-controllable and pre-measured signal (of an appropriate amplitude and frequency range) through the pickup.

I'm willing to go along with the idea that the pickup, the passive volume and tone knobs, and a low-impedance amp input could all impact the system of the cable--and I am developing tests for those things (and already have done, with the pickup). But vibrating a string is not a good test method, and honestly I'm quite sure it would not change the test results anyway. It would just be waves in the same frequency and amplitude range as the waves in the pink noise I'm using.

 

[peterpalmieri]

I don't think the point is to analyze the subtle factors of instrument design, pickup design, wood density, ambient temperature, etc... but rather test the claims about the cables themselves. As in, does cable 'A' really transmit transients better than cable 'B', and such.

We can go back & forth all day over all of the factors contributing to tone, but that's too broad a scope to deal with using easily digestible data (if even possible!).

I guess what I'm getting at is my perception (listening observations) is that my piezo equipped DB sounds different to me with some cables. While I noticed no difference in an active electric bass between cables.

A piezo pickup is very sensitive to input impedence on an amp as well, that is a fact. To say it effects "tone". I'd be suprised if these tests were done with different input impedence settings on the presonus? I'd guess the results would be similar (the variable being input impedence rather then cables) while the obvious difference would still be apparent with use of a piezo equipped DB.

I appreciate you guys indulging my not so scientific questions...

 

[bongomania]

I guess what I'm getting at is my perception (listening observations) is that my piezo equipped DB sounds different to me with some cables. While I noticed no difference in an active electric bass between cables. A piezo pickup is very sensitive to input impedence on an amp as well, that is a fact.

Certainly! The connection between a piezo pickup and an amp reveals a much wider range of effect from input impedance and cable capacitance, compared to an active bass preamp--which was specifically invented for the purpose of nullifying those impedance and capacitance effects.

So the two take-home points here are:
1) I need to test the capacitance of the cables.
2) As long as the input impedance of the test device does not change, the test results will not be affected. Because what's being tested is the cables' performance on a level playing field, not whether a given pickup sounds better going into a high or low input impedance.

 

[mulchor]

I understand you wanting to provide a consistent signal through each cable and of course cost limitations.

Do you or other experts on this topic really feel you are capturing all the variables by not taking a signal of a vibrating string through the pickup?

This thread keeps getting posts like this that hint at there being some dynamically interactive qualities in the cables.

The principle is to feed a full-spectrum signal and measure how the output differs from cable to cable. The results show the cables don't differ and are as flat as can be measured. A cable simply can not have dynamic qualities, cuz it's just a conductor. It can have capacitance, resistance, inductance.

There is, of course, the things that affect tone that happen in the ethereal plane of existence, and how the cable interacts with the player's aura and past-lives. Hopefully bongomania will find a way to graph those influences.

What I'm becoming convinced of is that instrument cable makers would do very well to create cables marked as:

• Active instruments only
• Passive instruments only
• Hi-fi sound
• Vintage sound (make it a nice curly cable like Jimi's)
• Drop-tuned
• etc.

Cuz no matter what the empirical evidence, I think this market can be milked.

 

[smogg]

There is a lot of good info in this post. But, as of yet no one has answered the BIG Q.

Which one is best for metal?